Balance shock spring

[Brutus]

Hi

In the cleaning process I lost the balance upper shock spring. I know exactly where I put it; I just don’t know what happened with it.

For now I managed to put a dial washer to keep the ruby on place...I know it is not ideal but it is just temporary until I manage to find one.  I start looking online but is no way I can find the model that I need...or perhaps I don’t know were to look for it.

If anyone have a spare to share, I will very much appreciated. I will attach some images with the style of the shock spring. It looks like a star(3 corners, first image) with a tiny little hole in the middle...no idea of the model name. I measured the diameter where the spring has to get in to hold the ruby in place and is about 3 mm; so I assume the shock spring has to be a little bit bigger(perhaps 3.10mm!).

It may work the one I see on the second image (Seiko watch).

Please help me out...or point me in the right direction where I can find one.

 

Thank you

[Nucejoe]

This is helvetia's own patented shock spring put in earlier versions, can't recall the name for sure. the spring came in several shape in different variants.

You best get a datasheet for the caliber you got.

[JohnR725]

Usually the best place to start for any watch repair discussion is who Made the watch and its model number.

Then something you might find helpful is having a set of the bestfit books. Fortunately now they're available from link below in a really bargain price. The reason I point out these books is they have an entire section on shock absorber systems. They have an entire section in their book on shock absorber systems. The problem is there are lots and lots of variations that all look almost identical.

 

https://mccawcompany.com/product/bestfit-encyclopedia-books-111-111a-digital-download-pdf-version/

 

[Brutus]

44 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Usually the best place to start for any watch repair discussion is who Made the watch and its model number.

Then something you might find helpful is having a set of the bestfit books. Fortunately now they're available from link below in a really bargain price. The reason I point out these books is they have an entire section on shock absorber systems. They have an entire section in their book on shock absorber systems. The problem is there are lots and lots of variations that all look almost identical.

 

https://mccawcompany.com/product/bestfit-encyclopedia-books-111-111a-digital-download-pdf-version/

 

Thank you for your advice.

The watch is Helvetia (General Watch Company)caliber 51-10 Sav. derivative from 51 S. 
You mentioned about those books; so if I find the part that I need on this book where I can order from?

Any suggestions?

 Thanks 

[jdm]

4 minutes ago, Doreen said:

You mentioned about those books; so if I find the part that I need on this book where I can order from?

Not books but service sheets, or more likely for vintage watches, parts sheets. However these won't help you in actually obtaining parts, unfortunately there is no guarantee that you can. Have a read at our pinned topic

 

[JohnR725]

20 minutes ago, Doreen said:

The watch is Helvetia (General Watch Company)caliber 51-10 Sav. derivative from 51 S. 
You mentioned about those books; so if I find the part that I need on this book where I can order from?

Any suggestions?

The sections on the shock  system assembly would help you to determine what it is you're looking for. Once you have a grasping what you're trying to find it would make it conceivably easier to find perhaps.

Than you might be looking at flying an assortment of Springs and seeing what's going to fit. This is because I go to the website below because I like to see pictures of the complete watch. They have several 51s none of them have a spring. Then the AED indicates there is a shock spring but only on one side? Which would be the dial side and that's not one you're looking for.

Then in addition to the best fit books originally they were to printed books currently it's a nice PDF. They even have an online  system but you need to pay for  that and I'm somewhat feeling lazy right now. So the balance jewel assemblies as a part number of 400 and I don't feel like differentiating between whatever you think you have or not so I just listed them all out below copied off the website. It looks like in the copy and paste formatting got mutilated so I'm in the snip out an image and is a wild guess we might have a part number.

Armed with my part number which is not the correct part number I go back to the bestfit books and snipped out an image there. It looks like as a guess you're looking for the Y spring. Several to choose from slightly different part numbers but perhaps for getting closer.

Then where can you order the parts from that's a nice question lot of that depends upon where you are perhaps some places you can order online. Then there's the other itsy-bitsy problem you know how many watches have been made? A not talking about a particular model where they made 1 million and talking about how many variations of watches were made. There must be hundreds of thousands of different watches all watch companies fighting to get around patents of other watch companies. So they'll be generic parts like mainsprings jewels perhaps and there will be the parts special for the watch. Conceivably will never get those ever.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Helvetia_51L

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Helvetia_80

GEN 80 400/4588220AUP CAP JEWEL SETTING

GEN 80 400/4598221TOP SHOCK SPRING

GEN 80 400/4608238Y SPRING

GEN 80 400/4618262REGULATOR COVER DISC 08/07/97 RC****

GEN 80 400/462 CAP JEWEL

GEN 90-90A400/463 Y SPRING

GEN 90-90A400/464 LOW SHOCK SPG OLD

GEN 90-90A400/4659021PLOW SHOCK SPG

GEN 90-90A400/466648CAP JEWEL

GEN 836400/4688321LOWER SPRING

GEN 836400/4698362REGULATOR COVER

GEN 836400/4708363UPPER BEARING

GEN 836400/4718364LOWER BEARING

GEN 836400/472268SPRING SCREW

 

[clockboy]

Finding a specific shock spring for a specific caliber is difficult to say the least.  In the best fit books there are hundreds listed. For example I repaired/ serviced a watch fitted with a Seiko movement that needed a new shock spring. Cousins actually contacted Seiko on my behalf but was told they do not sell them to the trade. Therefore I had to modify a spring I had in my stock. 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, clockboy said:

Cousins actually contacted Seiko on my behalf but was told they do not sell them to the trade.

If I remember correctly that was about a Grand Seiko, same ownership but different management, factories, sales channels, and service centers - in Japan only. "regular" Seiko parts are normally available if not discontinued.

The price is a robber anyway, I recall that It was a lot of fiew the last time I bought these, before realizing that is always better to get a cheap mov.t. for parts.

[Brutus]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The sections on the shock  system assembly would help you to determine what it is you're looking for. Once you have a grasping what you're trying to find it would make it conceivably easier to find perhaps.

Than you might be looking at flying an assortment of Springs and seeing what's going to fit. This is because I go to the website below because I like to see pictures of the complete watch. They have several 51s none of them have a spring. Then the AED indicates there is a shock spring but only on one side? Which would be the dial side and that's not one you're looking for.

Then in addition to the best fit books originally they were to printed books currently it's a nice PDF. They even have an online  system but you need to pay for  that and I'm somewhat feeling lazy right now. So the balance jewel assemblies as a part number of 400 and I don't feel like differentiating between whatever you think you have or not so I just listed them all out below copied off the website. It looks like in the copy and paste formatting got mutilated so I'm in the snip out an image and is a wild guess we might have a part number.

Armed with my part number which is not the correct part number I go back to the bestfit books and snipped out an image there. It looks like as a guess you're looking for the Y spring. Several to choose from slightly different part numbers but perhaps for getting closer.

Then where can you order the parts from that's a nice question lot of that depends upon where you are perhaps some places you can order online. Then there's the other itsy-bitsy problem you know how many watches have been made? A not talking about a particular model where they made 1 million and talking about how many variations of watches were made. There must be hundreds of thousands of different watches all watch companies fighting to get around patents of other watch companies. So they'll be generic parts like mainsprings jewels perhaps and there will be the parts special for the watch. Conceivably will never get those ever.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Helvetia_51L

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Helvetia_80

GEN 80 400/4588220AUP CAP JEWEL SETTING

GEN 80 400/4598221TOP SHOCK SPRING

GEN 80 400/4608238Y SPRING

GEN 80 400/4618262REGULATOR COVER DISC 08/07/97 RC****

GEN 80 400/462 CAP JEWEL

GEN 90-90A400/463 Y SPRING

GEN 90-90A400/464 LOW SHOCK SPG OLD

GEN 90-90A400/4659021PLOW SHOCK SPG

GEN 90-90A400/466648CAP JEWEL

GEN 836400/4688321LOWER SPRING

GEN 836400/4698362REGULATOR COVER

GEN 836400/4708363UPPER BEARING

GEN 836400/4718364LOWER BEARING

GEN 836400/472268SPRING SCREW

 

Thank you for all the help here. I appreciated it very much.

The model I need is the “Y” with the little hole in the middle; it is the same as illustrated on my second image I attached.

The movement I have is a very rare movement to find. I may have to build the shock spring from scratch.

My question will be: what material to use and where I can purchase it from?

I know it was yellow on color so I assume it was made out of brass perhaps; not sure. 
Also I see some Helvetia movements that have this shock spring made of something different. What I mean by “different” is that is not yellow on color it is like steel color “silver”. Also many of the very early Helvetia movements (1935-37)have the cross type and not the “Y”. 
Here is a excellent topic about the shock protection on Helvetia watches.

https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/1930s-sports-watches

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Doreen
Typos

[Brutus]

9 hours ago, Doreen said:

Thank you for all the help here. I appreciated it very much.

The model I need is the “Y” with the little hole in the middle; it is the same as illustrated on my second image I attached.

The movement I have is a very rare movement to find. I may have to build the shock spring from scratch.

My question will be: what material to use and where I can purchase it from?

I know it was yellow on color so I assume it was made out of brass perhaps; not sure. 
Also I see some Helvetia movements that have this shock spring made of something different. What I mean by “different” is that is not yellow on color it is like steel color “silver”. Also many of the very early Helvetia movements (1935-37)have the cross type and not the “Y”. 
Here is a excellent topic about the shock protection on Helvetia watches.

https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/1930s-sports-watches

 

 

This is the direct link about the Helvetia shock protection.

Great information.

https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/helvetia-shock-protection

[JohnR725]

15 hours ago, Doreen said:

My question will be: what material to use and where I can purchase it from?

Unfortunately that's a question everyone has in watch repair from time to time. Then a lot of times there is no answer.

Did you know if you look at the top of this webpage that you're on now there's some interesting things you can click on it like one that's labeled resources. I wonder what would find their oh wait we find the link that I have below. It lists helpful things but?

I remember when I started watch repair I knew there are material houses in Seattle. Because the students we had the rundown town and purchase our tools and end up visiting all of them. So when I started we had four different material houses. What I found interesting was I was looking in the phone book yes you can tell how old it was or IM there was no Internet. Looking in the phone book the material houses didn't exist? That's because there wholesale typically they deal with people in the trade. The meeting of this is there are more material houses out there than on this resource list.

In watch repair you need to become a detective. Consider every single watch the scene of the crime you have to figure out what happened there. Cleaning isn't going to necessarily solve the problem. Figuring out what parts you need where to get it all of that requires a lot a detective work.

So for instance in Seattle we have 2 1/2 material houses. At least left and none of them as far as I can tell will acknowledge online or any other way that they exist at all. One of them will only do material if you have a business license she'll only sell wholesale. On the other hand she will sell your tools and supplies if you're a hobbyist. The other material house sells to everybody. So if I needed this part I would just call up Debbie and give her the part numbers and did a couple weeks would find out if I get it or not.

The other problem of course is where do you live in the universe. I suspect there is still material houses out there beyond the listing below and you just have to go find them and see if that do business with you. I know that some of the online ones will not if they think you're a hobbyist.  Somebody in the past was looking for a part I found it inquired and there politely told to school way or maybe not so politely.

https://www.watchrepairlessons.com/2019/11/08/watch-parts-tools-suppliers/

To understand what I gave you above I snipped out the entire section of the printed or PDF book on shock springs for your watch manufacture. Then I went online and snipped out the entire section for your watch. If you're wondering why the initials GEN  are there when you doing online search they shorten the name to just a couple letters.

We do get something interesting the physical listing versus the online listing online gives us one more number. So now that I grasped were looking for a Y  spring we see that two of them are listed. So what you would be looking for is bestfit 400/460 or 400/463.  Oh and just to make things more interesting there were several systems for watch material at least in this country and more other places. Unfortunately we don't necessarily have the reference material so we don't know what the other systems are. This means when inquiring for parts from wholesale material houses you have to give them enough information that they can look in their reference material and find your part otherwise I get really cranky and won't give you the time a day. Which is why a lot of the wholesale ones will not deal with hobbyists.

Oh and we get one other interesting from all of this if you look at by listing above for the part number 400/4460  we do see another part number listed and that is the factory part number. So if you had an actual technical sheets that would be the number probably on that sheet.

Then but I go to the first link and do a search I can't give you the link that I have because it appears to be from my search so what I've done I snipped out images because we also get something interesting which also answers a question. So searching for 400/460  the image comes up and there's two items? I'm assuming that whatever reason their system somehow associates that other part number with what were searching for. Zero idea what that part is and clicking on it we discover that it's not available which is helpful? Reason it's helpful is when you search for the parts that were looking for they appear to be available and can be ordered.

Oh and depending upon time and space especially in the old days when there were way more material houses a lot of companies had generic assortments. Which is why I'm giving you the second link. The problem is if you look older watch your part may or may not be in a generic assortments.

 

 

http://www.julesborel.com

 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/shockproof-blocs-springs-insettings

Edited December 17, 2020 by JohnR725

[jdm]

29 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately that's a question everyone has in watch repair from time to time. Then a lot of times there is no answer.

What the OP asked in his latest post is what material to use to make a shock spring. My suggestion would be to try again a feeler gauge blade, like for the impeccable setting lever spring he did already. Maybe 0.03mm or 0.05 thickness.

[Brutus]

On 12/17/2020 at 7:23 AM, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately that's a question everyone has in watch repair from time to time. Then a lot of times there is no answer.

Did you know if you look at the top of this webpage that you're on now there's some interesting things you can click on it like one that's labeled resources. I wonder what would find their oh wait we find the link that I have below. It lists helpful things but?

I remember when I started watch repair I knew there are material houses in Seattle. Because the students we had the rundown town and purchase our tools and end up visiting all of them. So when I started we had four different material houses. What I found interesting was I was looking in the phone book yes you can tell how old it was or IM there was no Internet. Looking in the phone book the material houses didn't exist? That's because there wholesale typically they deal with people in the trade. The meeting of this is there are more material houses out there than on this resource list.

In watch repair you need to become a detective. Consider every single watch the scene of the crime you have to figure out what happened there. Cleaning isn't going to necessarily solve the problem. Figuring out what parts you need where to get it all of that requires a lot a detective work.

So for instance in Seattle we have 2 1/2 material houses. At least left and none of them as far as I can tell will acknowledge online or any other way that they exist at all. One of them will only do material if you have a business license she'll only sell wholesale. On the other hand she will sell your tools and supplies if you're a hobbyist. The other material house sells to everybody. So if I needed this part I would just call up Debbie and give her the part numbers and did a couple weeks would find out if I get it or not.

The other problem of course is where do you live in the universe. I suspect there is still material houses out there beyond the listing below and you just have to go find them and see if that do business with you. I know that some of the online ones will not if they think you're a hobbyist.  Somebody in the past was looking for a part I found it inquired and there politely told to school way or maybe not so politely.

https://www.watchrepairlessons.com/2019/11/08/watch-parts-tools-suppliers/

To understand what I gave you above I snipped out the entire section of the printed or PDF book on shock springs for your watch manufacture. Then I went online and snipped out the entire section for your watch. If you're wondering why the initials GEN  are there when you doing online search they shorten the name to just a couple letters.

We do get something interesting the physical listing versus the online listing online gives us one more number. So now that I grasped were looking for a Y  spring we see that two of them are listed. So what you would be looking for is bestfit 400/460 or 400/463.  Oh and just to make things more interesting there were several systems for watch material at least in this country and more other places. Unfortunately we don't necessarily have the reference material so we don't know what the other systems are. This means when inquiring for parts from wholesale material houses you have to give them enough information that they can look in their reference material and find your part otherwise I get really cranky and won't give you the time a day. Which is why a lot of the wholesale ones will not deal with hobbyists.

Oh and we get one other interesting from all of this if you look at by listing above for the part number 400/4460  we do see another part number listed and that is the factory part number. So if you had an actual technical sheets that would be the number probably on that sheet.

Then but I go to the first link and do a search I can't give you the link that I have because it appears to be from my search so what I've done I snipped out images because we also get something interesting which also answers a question. So searching for 400/460  the image comes up and there's two items? I'm assuming that whatever reason their system somehow associates that other part number with what were searching for. Zero idea what that part is and clicking on it we discover that it's not available which is helpful? Reason it's helpful is when you search for the parts that were looking for they appear to be available and can be ordered.

Oh and depending upon time and space especially in the old days when there were way more material houses a lot of companies had generic assortments. Which is why I'm giving you the second link. The problem is if you look older watch your part may or may not be in a generic assortments.

 

 

http://www.julesborel.com

 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/shockproof-blocs-springs-insettings

JohnR725 I apologize it took me a while to replay back. I very much appreciate all your time you put in to this matter. Thank you again for helping me out with this.

I have just purchased the Bestfit Enciclopedia and I was looking at page 734. I assume there is where you found the Y style spring under the 460 part number. Am I correct with this?

 

 I measured the upper diameter (hole)where the ruby is in place; it is 3 mm. So, I assume the spring diameter has to be a little bit bigger(perhaps 3.10mm- 3.20mm!) since it has to be fit in that little channel to hold the ruby in place. 

From the Bestfit catalog on page 734 (shock absorbent material system) I have measured (with a professional caliber) and the results are: the one under #460 the diameter is-7.48mm, the one under #463 the diameter is- 4.31mm.

It seams the one that is closed to what I need is the part under #463; assuming the drowning in the book is at 100% scale natural shape size. What is your opinion on this?

I should probably order both of them 460 and 463 just to be on the save side.
 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Doreen
Typos

[Brutus]

On 12/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, jdm said:

What the OP asked in his latest post is what material to use to make a shock spring. My suggestion would be to try again a feeler gauge blade, like for the impeccable setting lever spring he did already. Maybe 0.03mm or 0.05 thickness.

Thank you for your kind words.

If I have no luck to find the part I will have to try building it up. 

[Brutus]

On 12/16/2020 at 8:04 AM, jdm said:

Not books but service sheets, or more likely for vintage watches, parts sheets. However these won't help you in actually obtaining parts, unfortunately there is no guarantee that you can. Have a read at our pinned topic

 

I’m not able to find any service shits on this particular movement. It seams to be a rare one.

[Poljot]

On 12/16/2020 at 4:05 AM, Doreen said:

Please help me out...or point me in the right direction where I can find one

Probably within 1 meter radius from where you put it... 

Search - don't give up. You will find it.

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, Poljot said:

Probably within 1 meter radius from where you put it... 

Search - don't give up. You will find it.

To aid in your search try a magnet. Even though the Springs are usually a pretty gold color that's deceiving their usually steel. At least it's worth a try. It's amazing what happens if you're really obsessed because you misplaced one super tiny component. A nice flashlight and a lot of patience and it's amazing what we've all found That seemingly was lost forever but not

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, Doreen said:

I have just purchased the Bestfit Enciclopedia and I was looking at page 734. I assume there is where you found the Y style spring under the 460 part number. Am I correct with this?

Now that you have the books from through them. There is a lot of interesting information buried in those bucks hidden in some ways beyond just looking for parts helpful tips and things.

Yes looking at the book now pays 734 is where the pictures are of your part possibly.

14 hours ago, Doreen said:

It seams the one that is closed to what I need is the part under #463; assuming the drowning in the book is at 100% scale natural shape size. What is your opinion on this?

I should probably order both of them 460 and 463 just to be on the save side.

I know like in the fingerprint section of the book the section where you look at your setting parts of those are printed exactly to size. I never really thought about the other section so maybe they are? How do curiosity I printed one of the pages out printed the size and I will lean towards the probably not printed to scale they're printed so you can see them. But I did notice which I hadn't noticed before they do is specify dimensions sort of like the cap jewel diameter is mentioned except of course that's somewhat unhelpful? So for the two different springs the cap jewel diameter is basically confusing in a way so for part 461 of the stones has a diameter of 190 and the other one is 160. Then for the other one it's 140 although? Probably go to the beginning of the book and look up the specific calibers and you find that one am is smaller than the other perhaps.

There is another option to try don't know what you're going to get though the material houses a lot of times have considerable more information than we have. You could always try emailing the company telling them exactly which watch you have by model number and asking if they know which spring would fit your watch if it would. But on something as obscure as this it may just be cheaper to buy one of each. Then the other thing is the website that talks about this watch asked them maybe they know.

One of those other minor little weird problems of way way too many variations of parts. Seemingly simple tasks of getting something only a find out that comes in so many variations.

[Brutus]

On 12/22/2020 at 7:12 AM, JohnR725 said:

Now that you have the books from through them. There is a lot of interesting information buried in those bucks hidden in some ways beyond just looking for parts helpful tips and things.

Yes looking at the book now pays 734 is where the pictures are of your part possibly.

I know like in the fingerprint section of the book the section where you look at your setting parts of those are printed exactly to size. I never really thought about the other section so maybe they are? How do curiosity I printed one of the pages out printed the size and I will lean towards the probably not printed to scale they're printed so you can see them. But I did notice which I hadn't noticed before they do is specify dimensions sort of like the cap jewel diameter is mentioned except of course that's somewhat unhelpful? So for the two different springs the cap jewel diameter is basically confusing in a way so for part 461 of the stones has a diameter of 190 and the other one is 160. Then for the other one it's 140 although? Probably go to the beginning of the book and look up the specific calibers and you find that one am is smaller than the other perhaps.

There is another option to try don't know what you're going to get though the material houses a lot of times have considerable more information than we have. You could always try emailing the company telling them exactly which watch you have by model number and asking if they know which spring would fit your watch if it would. But on something as obscure as this it may just be cheaper to buy one of each. Then the other thing is the website that talks about this watch asked them maybe they know.

One of those other minor little weird problems of way way too many variations of parts. Seemingly simple tasks of getting something only a find out that comes in so many variations.

You are right...I have search for hours on the floor, table, office,etc,  with a flashlight with no luck at all. Second day I start again...I couldn’t find the dam spring.
Anyway I have order the two model of the shocking spring and I’m extremely curious to see if they will work for my caliber.

I also did all you mentioned above, with a tons of emails, asking all over. Most of the watch parts suppliers said they never heard of this specific caliber (51-10 or 51S)ever.

The problem is this, the (51-10) turned out to be an extremely rare caliber to find and also parts for it. This is the reason why I had to build up the setting lever spring too because I was unable to find any parts anywhere. I was searching for almost two years with no luck at all. In that case the drownings  from my book were the same size as the original part. All I had to do is copy it on the steel and cut...It turned out very well. Anyway I have tried to find a scrap movement to buy it for parts but again...no luck at all with this either.
So I had to come and search for help here and I have found a lots of good advice and support. Thank you again all of you for that.

I will not give up and I will keep looking, maybe one day, when less expected, I will find a scrap movement for sale somewhere out there.  

 

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

On 12/23/2020 at 12:35 PM, Doreen said:

You are right...I have search for hours on the floor, table, office,etc,  with a flashlight with no luck at all. Second day I start again...I couldn’t find the dam spring.

One of the problems with small parts are they can hitch a ride on something like a human being. Which means while you're running around looking for the flashlight and the magnet and whatever your transporting your missing part to a new location.

On 12/23/2020 at 12:35 PM, Doreen said:

I also did all you mentioned above, with a tons of emails, asking all over. Most of the watch parts suppliers said they never heard of this specific caliber (51-10 or 51S)ever.

Watch repair is interesting in that I don't think most people even those in watch repair grasp how many different movements have been made. Then the availability of technical literature and parts for those movements is just a very tiny percentage.

[watchweasol]

Hi  have alook though the following link  https://omegaforums.net/  I found some interesting information on the Gen Watch Co  and Depollier, Helvitia  and a tie up with Omega. The Image below is an cal 81 see shock spring  also on the Cal 82,  the pre 1930s were a cross spring , The Site Vintage Watch Straps has a movement identification page that might help

[watchweasol]

Hi after a bit more looking I think this one is better   https://omegaforums.net/threads/interesting-helvetia-watches.82369/page-3       

bidfun-db Archive_ Watch Movements_ Helvetia, General Watch Co, Bienne, Reconvilier, Tramelan, Vienna.html

Edited December 25, 2020 by watchweasol
duplicate file

[Brutus]

On 12/25/2020 at 5:17 PM, watchweasol said:

Hi after a bit more looking I think this one is better   https://omegaforums.net/threads/interesting-helvetia-watches.82369/page-3       

bidfun-db Archive_ Watch Movements_ Helvetia, General Watch Co, Bienne, Reconvilier, Tramelan, Vienna.html 25.29 kB · 5 downloads

Thanks for the info.