Fitting new Sellita SW-200-1 to Bell & Ross BR03-92

[andrewmayer]

Hi there,

I'm planning on fitting a new movement to my friends Bell & Ross BR03-92. He dropped it, and it's stopped running, and the keyless works are not working too well.  It hasn't been serviced for 12 years and so I figured it would benefit from a new Sellita SW200-1 movement, which I could buy and fit for him for less than the price of a professional service. He would get a new movement, all lubricated and with a new lease of life.

My concern is that I have only worked with Seiko NH36 movements - but it looks like I can get a Sellita SW200-1 "special" from CousinsUK and do a straight replacement.  

Am I correct to assume the following?

1. I would have no problems changing the date wheel on the new movement to the original Bell & Ross one.

2. The old stem on the old crown would be work okay.

3. The Sellita movements are supplied in different sizes of hour wheels, but I don't know what size the original is (as I don't have calipers) but I could easily swap the hour wheel from the original.

4. I would be okay swapping the old custom Bell & Ross rotor onto the new movement.

Is there anything that Bell & Ross are likely to have done to make a movement swap difficult for me that I should be aware of? I've only swapped NH36 movements before. What tips and advice would you give me as first timer with the SW200-1? I know that you need to use a 1mm screw-driver for the crown stem removal, but are there any other gotchas?

Many thanks for your help! I've attached some photos.

[WatchMaker]

While most of the folk on this forum would look to service and replace something if necessary, I kinda get your logic on a whole movement replacement if you don't have that experience.

Your swap rationale is sound since you are replacing like with like and all your assumptions should be fine.

I wondered why you wouldn't just get a pair of inexpensive digital calipers (a fiver on ebay and generally useful) to make sure you got a movement with the right height hour wheel in the first place rather than ask about a swap. But I can see why from your second picture ... you've removed the dial with hand in situ by the looks of it as hour wheel is on reverse of dial rather than on the movement.

Just be careful here. Dials are normally notoriously sensitive to marking so you don't want anything in contact with it. You also have to ensure if you put the dial back with this situation that the hour wheel seats okay. And remember to effect a date change and put the hand at 12 when you reassemble so it's in the right place.

You should look to replace any gasket too. Assume you found one when taking the case apart?

[JohnR725]

just in case you needed I'm attaching the service manual.

On 12/1/2020 at 1:43 PM, andrewmayer said:

The old stem on the old crown would be work okay

the stem will be fine the crown will not possibly. If you're servicing the watch you should verify that it's still water resistant conceivably the crown gasket has worn out after time just like the back gasket should be changed or any other gaskets found in the watch.

On 12/1/2020 at 1:43 PM, andrewmayer said:

The Sellita movements are supplied in different sizes of hour wheels

technically that's not quite correct. If you look at the service bulletin towards the back is all sorts of interesting information like the movement comes with a variety of thickness for more than just an hour wheel it looks like it comes in 12 different sizes which will correspond to different dial thicknesses. So on page 22 of the PDF it explains that it's not just our wheel it's a whole bunch of other stuff. So I really would be good to get the right movement in the first place.

 

 

 

Sellita Brochure_technique-SW200-1_39.pdf

[Nucejoe]

Traditionally Bell&Ross puts a high grade movement in their watches.  

Dose selitta make different grade movements? 

Some forums have subforums dedicated to different brands, usually not much there in way of repair but at least you get access to a community of Bell&Ross enthusiasts.

Regs 

Joe

 

 

[Graziano]

Hi Joe, as far as I know selitta make 3 or 4 grades of movement. From standard through to chronometer. Oh I just found this https://calibercorner.com/sellita-grades/

[andrewmayer]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

technically that's not quite correct. If you look at the service bulletin towards the back is all sorts of interesting information like the movement comes with a variety of thickness for more than just an hour wheel it looks like it comes in 12 different sizes which will correspond to different dial thicknesses. So on page 22 of the PDF it explains that it's not just our wheel it's a whole bunch of other stuff. So I really would be good to get the right movement in the first place.

 

 

 

Sellita Brochure_technique-SW200-1_39.pdf 3.09 MB · 0 downloads

 

Thanks so much! That's exactly the kind of "gotcha" that I was worried about. So I will in invest in a digital calliper and measure the original movement. So now, my next question is "which is the best value calliper for the job?"  

Edited December 3, 2020 by andrewmayer

[Nucejoe]

Hello G, 

I think the watch OP shows are priced in 3 to 4k range, must house a decent grade movement.

Regs 

Joe

[andrewmayer]

17 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Hello G, 

I think the watch OP shows are priced in 3 to 4k range, must house a decent grade movement.

Regs 

Joe

I think this one was more like $2-3K new 10 years ago. 

It's tricky to find out exactly what grade Bell & Ross use. I wouldn't assume money is going on the movement because the brand doesn't have a great reputation for transparency about their movements. Sadly, I think it is more of a "fashion" brand now.

I have found a teardown review of a B&R watch that says they have used the "special" grade of the SW300 in other models of similar price:

https://www.watchtime.com/wristwatch-industry-news/cockpit-companion-testing-the-bell-ross-br-03-92/

From the internet, looks to me like there are four grades of SW200-1:

Standard – adjusted in two positions; accuracy of +/-12 sec/day up to +/- 30 sec/day
Special (Elabore) – adjusted in three positions; accuracy of +/-7 sec/day up to +/- 20 sec/day
Premium (Top) – adjusted in five positions; accuracy of +/-4 sec/day up to +/- 15 sec/day
Chronometer – COSC criteria

I can source the "Special" from CousinsUK for about $360. Seems a bit tricky to find the Premium. 

(In other news, I can borrow a digital calliper from the local university to measure up and make sure I purchase the correct size).

Thank again. Any other tips?

[jdm]

4 hours ago, andrewmayer said:

I  I can borrow a digital calliper from the local university to measure up and make sure I purchase the correct size

A digital caliper should be less than USD 20 and is a necessity when working with watches and many other things. 

Then when it comes to hands height it is very difficult for individuals to buy anything different from the standard. For someone able that is not a big deal as long they the original parts are available. 

 

[Tudor]

I have swapped hour wheel, cannon pinion and center seconds pinion from one ETA movement to another to correct hand height; I presume you would be able to do the same here. The date wheel should swap right over.

As far as the movement repair goes, I would want to preserve the original movement as much as possible. So, I'd get the "special" movement to have on hand as a parts mule, do a full tear down on the original movement, and replace only what needs to be replaced from the mule to keep it as original as possible. You may find you don't need much; possibly a cracked jewel...

You may want to seek out a new crown for the watch. Certainly new seals go without saying, but the threads on the crown (and possibly tube) should be scrutinized, and replaced if possible, on such an old watch (assuming daily wear- not so much for a "safe queen" that's 12 years old.)

[Poljot]

On 12/1/2020 at 4:43 PM, andrewmayer said:

Hi there,

I'm planning on fitting a new movement to my friends Bell & Ross BR03-92. He dropped it, and it's stopped running, and the keyless works are not working too well.  It hasn't been serviced for 12 years and so I figured it would benefit from a new Sellita SW200-1 movement, which I could buy and fit for him for less than the price of a professional service. He would get a new movement, all lubricated and with a new lease of life.

I would explain these options to your friend and ask him what is his preference. Some people try to keep their watches as original as possible. I am one of them.

You can replace the movement, but you may only need a new balance assembly, stem (just an example), etc.

[andrewmayer]

2 hours ago, Poljot said:

I would explain these options to your friend and ask him what is his preference. Some people try to keep their watches as original as possible. I am one of them.

You can replace the movement, but you may only need a new balance assembly, stem (just an example), etc.

Thanks. Of course I made sure to check with him! He's pretty cool about it. 

Also, the movement desperately needs a service, which would cost him at least $400.

Edited December 3, 2020 by andrewmayer

[andrewmayer]

2 hours ago, Tudor said:

As far as the movement repair goes, I would want to preserve the original movement as much as possible. So, I'd get the "special" movement to have on hand as a parts mule, do a full tear down on the original movement, and replace only what needs to be replaced from the mule to keep it as original as possible. You may find you don't need much; possibly a cracked jewel...

Doing a full tear down and rebuild is beyond my skill level I'm afraid. One day I hope to, but I'm not experienced enough to go inside movements at the moment.

I will probably tear down the old movement as a learning exercise later, but I'm not confident getting it back working (yet!)

[andrewmayer]

3 hours ago, jdm said:

A digital caliper should be less than USD 20 and is a necessity when working with watches and many other things. 

The cheap ones I found had very bad reviews, looks like I need to spend more like $70. But like you say, I should probably buy one for future projects. I'll ask Santa for one for Christmas!  

[Poljot]

6 minutes ago, andrewmayer said:

Thanks. Of course I made sure to check with him! He's pretty cool about it. 

Also, the movement desperately needs a service, which would cost him at least $400.

NP. I had this dilemma with one fairly expensive watch that had 7753 movement. I could have (in theory) swapped the movement, but (BUT) one 7753 is not the same as "custom finished" another 7753. I ended up servicing it (excellent test of your patience). I think it was right decision as i definitely wanted to keep that watch original.

[andrewmayer]

1 minute ago, Poljot said:

NP. I had this dilemma with one fairly expensive watch that had 7753 movement. I could have (in theory) swapped the movement, but (BUT) one 7753 is not the same as "custom finished" another 7753. I ended up servicing it (excellent test of your patience). I think it was right decision as i definitely wanted to keep that watch original.

He just wants his watch to be back working asap. I don't think Bell & Ross customers care about the movements (wink) and care more about the square style.

Anyway, I was planning on swapping the custom rotor for the original B&R - which is only one big screw (I think?).

And, if I eventually manage to get his old movement working one day, then I could pop that back in. Although he seems to like the idea of a brand new movement. 

 

[Tudor]

Yes, one big screw on the rotor. 

[jdm]

16 minutes ago, andrewmayer said:

The cheap ones I found had very bad reviews, looks like I need to spend more like $70. But like you say, I should probably buy one for future projects. I'll ask Santa for one for Christmas!  

Reviews? Mine works just fine. Do not assume that a price difference means a quality difference when it's about Chinese mass produced objects. If you want to be a bit different and not dependent on batteries and Electronics, get a vernier or dial caliper. 

[Poljot]

18 minutes ago, andrewmayer said:

He just wants his watch to be back working asap. I don't think Bell & Ross customers care about the movements (wink) and care more about the square style.

Anyway, I was planning on swapping the custom rotor for the original B&R - which is only one big screw (I think?).

And, if I eventually manage to get his old movement working one day, then I could pop that back in. Although he seems to like the idea of a brand new movement. 

 

Well, then you are on the right path! No one will ever see the oscillating weight unless the movement is removed.

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, andrewmayer said:

He just wants his watch to be back working asap. I don't think Bell & Ross customers care about the movements (wink) and care more about the square style.

this is one of the interesting things with wristwatches versus pocket watches. Pocket watch it's usually easy to get the back off see the movement. A lot of wristwatches now have nice windows so you can see the movement. But most wristwatches people have zero idea what powers the hand's. Even for Bell and Ross they have their movement number hinting that somehow they've enhanced the movement but they don't really go into. So perhaps you're right on the other hand if you told somebody that you're going to fix their several thousand dollar watch and put in a $20 Chinese equivalent would they go for it? Because after all you can't see the movements?

 

16 hours ago, Tudor said:

I have swapped hour wheel, cannon pinion and center seconds pinion from one ETA movement to another to correct hand height; I presume you would be able to do the same here. The date wheel should swap right over.

the tech sheet that I posted above is interesting. There are seven different hand fitting heights that have a center tube of 2.5 mm. If you want the something extremely thick then it becomes 3.5 mm. But I'm guessing it's going to be in the thinner category. So it looks like you should bill a swap all the components except. The second pinion is inside the watch which means anyone that has the skill to get that far into the watch and swap that should bill the service the watch. So basically that isn't going to happen.

What's really puzzling is nowhere in the tech sheet doesn't explain how you're supposed to tell which movement you have. Usually there's a letter code or a number code or a height code or something to indicate which movement you have and it does not explain at all other than? They do refer to the height with the numbers one through 12 so maybe that's on the movement someplace.

[andrewmayer]

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

So perhaps you're right on the other hand if you told somebody that you're going to fix their several thousand dollar watch and put in a $20 Chinese equivalent would they go for it? Because after all you can't see the movements

I actually asked him if we wanted a new Chinese movement, and he said "hell no! I prefer a proper Swiss one!"  He's pretty keen on accuracy too so that makes sense to me. 
 

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

the tech sheet that I posted above is interesting. There are seven different hand fitting heights that have a center tube of 2.5 mm. If you want the something extremely thick then it becomes 3.5 mm. But I'm guessing it's going to be in the thinner category. So it looks like you should bill a swap all the components except. The second pinion is inside the watch which means anyone that has the skill to get that far into the watch and swap that should bill the service the watch. So basically that isn't going to happen.

I'm sorry I don't get your point? 

I am assuming that the height of the hour wheel alone will indicate which movement I need to do a straight swap. (The hour wheel comes off easily and is shown on my second photo on the left hand size, on the back of the dial). For example, if the length is 1.25 then I need size 2 (standard) but if the length is 1.5 then I need size 3  etc etc.

 

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

What's really puzzling is nowhere in the tech sheet doesn't explain how you're supposed to tell which movement you have. Usually there's a letter code or a number code or a height code or something to indicate which movement you have and it does not explain at all other than? They do refer to the height with the numbers one through 12 so maybe that's on the movement someplace.

Interesting yes. I've had a good look at the outside of the movement and can only find the code "DM09/A154" shown below. (Of course, there is also a mark saying "SW 200 1").

https://calibercorner.com/sellita-caliber-sw200-1/ says this code is a date code and that DM09 means the movement was produced in 2009. I'm not sure what A154 means and can only guess. Any ideas?

Edited December 4, 2020 by andrewmayer

[jdm]

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

What's really puzzling is nowhere in the tech sheet doesn't explain how you're supposed to tell which movement you have. Usually there's a letter code or a number code or a height code or something to indicate which movement you have and it does not explain at all other than? They do refer to the height with the numbers one through 12 so maybe that's on the movement someplace.

I would not be surprised if there are no markings for that. Mov.t variations are a grey area in the sense that whatever code is known only to the ones needing to know, that is the factory and the customer ordering a minimum of 500 pieces customized according to their needs. Then the manufacturer will supply spare parts for retail according to their own convenience. As we know is not like the Swiss industry cares much about individual or independent repairers.

[JohnR725]

46 minutes ago, andrewmayer said:

I'm sorry I don't get your point? 

I am assuming that the height of the hour wheel alone will indicate which movement I need to do a straight swap. (The hour wheel comes off easily and is shown on my second photo on the left hand size, on the back of the dial). For example, if the length is 1.25 then I need size 2 (standard) but if the length is 1.5 then I need size 3  etc etc.

the point that I was trying to make was previously somebody talked about swapping components. typically when people are doing quartz movement swapping because it's cheaper to put a new movement in then repair the old one. Aw so typical you can never get the size you want this requires swapping components. Somebody else discuss this up above. So basically the movement breaks down into by the center tube 2 Different Ctr. tube lengths. Super thick dials and the normal dials which are probably going to deal with. So worst-case you could swap the components but the second hand goes on a shaft which is inside the movement and you would have to swap that which you do not have the skill set to do.

Then this does assume that  one other little problem did not occur. I've seen this with another watch I can't quite remember the company name but they got a custom size. I don't remember what the consequence of that was but it meant that we could not buy a movement and I think it required swapping. The back of my mind there's something's we had to do so it made it considerably less easy because you could not by the particular movement they had because of the modification.

28 minutes ago, jdm said:

As we know is not like the Swiss industry cares much about individual or independent repairers.

normally I would agree with you but haunting me in the back of my memory was I think it was Omega actually pull it a code on the movement for something. So they had a sizing code where you could see it because you needed it for its something and I'm sorry I can't remember specifically but I just thought it was interesting that they actually gave you the information that you needed. Because you're right normally watch repair is an afterthought it's a necessary evil and right now it's not even a evilly want to deal with they don't even want us to repair their watches.

[Poljot]

51 minutes ago, andrewmayer said:

I actually asked him if we wanted a new Chinese movement, and he said "hell no! I prefer a proper Swiss one!"  He's pretty keen on accuracy too so that makes sense to me. 
 

I'm sorry I don't get your point? 

I am assuming that the height of the hour wheel alone will indicate which movement I need to do a straight swap. (The hour wheel comes off easily and is shown on my second photo on the left hand size, on the back of the dial). For example, if the length is 1.25 then I need size 2 (standard) but if the length is 1.5 then I need size 3  etc etc.

 

Interesting yes. I've had a good look at the outside of the movement and can only find the code "DM09/A154" shown below. (Of course, there is also a mark saying "SW 200 1").

https://calibercorner.com/sellita-caliber-sw200-1/ says this code is a date code and that DM09 means the movement was produced in 2009. I'm not sure what A154 means and can only guess. Any ideas?

 

This is what google finds searching with "DM09/A154" :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi5wJe4r7XtAhUxTd8KHf_5BTsQFjALegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fimages1.bonhams.com%2Foriginal%3Fsrc%3DImages%2Flive%2F2013-10%2F22%2FS-20749-0-1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2RpEEO0HEWAekQBSHmP1XD

 

264
Bell & Ross. A black PVD coated stainless steel automatic calendar
wristwatch
Ref:BR02-20-S-01678, Case No.0561001, Movement No.DM09/A154,
Recent
26-jewel Cal.SW200 automatic movement, matt black dial with
luminous baton hour markers and Arabic quarters, raised uni-directional
inner calibrated bezel with orange arrow at 12, red and yellow sword
hands with luminous inserts and centre seconds, date aperture between
4 and 5, black PVD coated tonneau shaped case with screw down back,
dust cap, 4 decorative screws to bezel, shouldered screw down crown,
screw down crown at 2 for rotating inner bezel, helium escape valve at
9, fitted fabric velcro strap with signed buckle, together with fitted Bell
& Ross carry case and unstamped guarantee booklet without guarantee
card, case, dial and movement signed
44mm.
£1,200 - 1,800
€1,400 - 2,100

[Poljot]

Please note: date aperture between 4 and 5

Now, compare it with CousinsUK options for this calibre: Date @ 3h and overall numerals layout / size