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Driving wheel for 3rd wheel removal? (Omega cal.351)


PaulC

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Hi all,

Stripping down an Omega Seamaster, Cal. 351. The movement is filthy (S/N = 1947 manufacture and it looks like it not been serviced since!).

Everything going swimmingly until now: the third wheel is below the train bridge, with what Omega parts list calls a ‘driving wheel for 3rd wheel’ sitting above the bridge - see picture.

I saw something sort of similar on a Phenix cal 180 recently where there was an intermediate bridge between the ‘driving wheel’ and the third wheel - in that case the driving wheel simply lifted off with no manipulation.

This one is not moving (al least it is, but locked into the third wheel below) - and I am very wary of exerting any force, obviously.

Is it simply held in by ‘gunk’ or am I missing something blindingly obvious. And if it is old oil that’s gone hard, how to loosen without snapping/bending the pivot of the driving wheel?

All and any ideas very welcome.

.......Paul (Northampton)

IMG_3136.jpeg

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There's a tool for this. I don't really know a good way to remove it without the tool. The driving wheel is a friction fit on an extended pivot on the 3rd wheel, and it's quite easy to bend it or break it. The tool reaches between the spokes and lifts the wheel, pressing on the bridge. There's one for even spoke wheels and odd spoke wheels.

 

 

presto.jpg

Edited by nickelsilver
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37 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

There's a tool for this.

I use it for that task, too.

There is someone in US  who claims, the Swiss use to remove these wheels by hand, twisting it, while the gears are blocked. And shall be the 'one and only' method!

Can you confirm this?

Frank

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42 minutes ago, praezis said:

I use it for that task, too.

There is someone in US  who claims, the Swiss use to remove these wheels by hand, twisting it, while the gears are blocked. And shall be the 'one and only' method!

Can you confirm this?

Frank

Hmm, I went to school in the U.S. and in Switzerland, and never had anyone suggest to do it that way.

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4 minutes ago, Poljot said:

You will be able to clean and oil that particular area without removing the Driving Wheel.

It can be easily damaged even if you use a proper tool. Warning! ?

 

While I have repivoted a number of these (and 4th wheel extended pivots on chronographs), I have yet to break one with my Presto tool in over 20 years, including when I was a greenhorn in school. I'm pretty sure the watchmakers who send me the parts to repivot didn't break it because they have and use this tool.

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26 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I have yet to break one with my Presto tool in over 20 years, including when I was a greenhorn in school. I'm pretty sure the watchmakers who send me the parts to repivot didn't break it because they have and use this tool.

Very good, excellent record! It appears that repairing watches is your main job, not a hobby. Could you please describe the benefits of removing such wheel on 30T2SCPC, 280, 283 and the subject calibers while servicing these movements? I was able to get all access I needed to properly clean and oil that particular area without removing the driving wheel. I serviced 30T2SCPC 2+ years ago and still wear it almost every week. It keep perfect time and the driving wheel did not seize (yet ? ). Thank you. 

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7 minutes ago, Poljot said:

Very good, excellent record! It appears that repairing watches is your main job, not a hobby. Could you please describe the benefits of removing such wheel on 30T2SCPC, 280, 283 and the subject calibers while servicing these movements? I was able to get all access I needed to properly clean and oil that particular area without removing the driving wheel. I serviced 30T2SCPC 2+ years ago and still wear it almost every week. It keep perfect time and the driving wheel did not seize (yet ? ). Thank you. 

I guess there's no benefit? Probably a lot of things you can just leave assembled. They'll probably get clean.

 

I'm curious how many you've broken using the Presto tool?

58 minutes ago, Poljot said:

 

It can be easily damaged even if you use a proper tool. Warning! ?

Is that why you leave it assembled now? Maybe you have a defective tool?

 

Pretty much everything in a watch can be easily damaged using the proper tool. Still good to learn to use the right tools and do the job correctly. I fixed my car exhaust with a soup can and it held for two years, but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

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2 hours ago, praezis said:

There is someone in US  who claims, the Swiss use to remove these wheels by hand, twisting it, while the gears are blocked. And shall be the 'one and only' method!

Can you confirm this?

one of the problems in watch repair is we have urban legends. Things that seem like they could be true and a lot of people perceive they are true and they very definitely are not true.

then the other thing in watch repair is usually there is multiple tools to do the same job that doesn't necessarily mean all of the tools are good just lots of choices sometimes. For instance in the current Bergeon catalog I've snipped out an image here's a tool that will do the same thing as the tool up above. then if you have an older Bergeon catalog this particular tool came in three different sizes but now they just have one.

Bergeon 6016.JPG

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7 minutes ago, Poljot said:

Please tell me that you personally would never use this tool to remove the Driving Wheel shown at the top of this topic.

the tool found way up at the top of the page looks like I have two of them. One here at the bench at home and one at the bench at work. then the other tool is only at work I feel deprived here that I don't have one at home also.

Then the real question becomes which one do I grab when I have to take one of those wheels off? It's always nice to have options because a lot of times one tool just isn't going to cut it. But I'm guessing I usually grab the one that I gave an image for then if that doesn't work I use the other tool. On the other hand maybe I just use whichever when I grab first.

But maybe I could do an experiment today. Did occur to me I have a watch that has a wheel like that's that does need to come off maybe I'll see which tool I grab first today if I remember.

 

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what I will try to remember to do is to take the other camera to work today. I have a specific camera I use whatever I'm doing watch photos. The problem with the picture of the tool it doesn't really show how it really works. so I think getting a picture would be a lot easier than trying to explain it the tool works really well.

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10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

what I will try to remember to do is to take the other camera to work today. I have a specific camera I use whatever I'm doing watch photos. The problem with the picture of the tool it doesn't really show how it really works. so I think getting a picture would be a lot easier than trying to explain it the tool works really well.

That would be great, as Cousins have this tool -

image.thumb.png.c4e6680bce4fb623febebb52f0f96936.png

 

cheaper than buying both the 5 and 6 spoke tools, but I can't figure out how it works.

I have removed the wheels by using two razor blades. Fortunately they came off easily.

 

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My advice: leave it alone unless there is a compelling reason to remove it. Older Rolex (15xx) works this way too, and those parts, though easy to find, command silly prices.

So, I suggest ultrasonic cleaning (even though mine is busted), then careful oiling with the finest oiler as required.

A "compelling reason" to remove it might be a broken jewel/worn bushing for instance. And re-installing it correctly without a jeweling kit probably wouldn't go perfectly. I understand you can't always ascertain that without full disassembly, but sometimes you have to punt.

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50 minutes ago, Tudor said:

My advice: leave it alone unless there is a compelling reason to remove it.

Thank you!

Removing that Driving on my 30T2scpc would NO DOUBT leave marks / scratches, or worse... Cleaning it "in-situ" was a piece of cake. Another "compelling reason" example would be ETA 7753 where you have no choice but to remove the so called additional driving wheel.

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I'm attaching pictures so you can see what the other tool looks like. There are two protruding needles which actually look like sewing needles ground on one side. what we can't see is how their attached to the base. Because they're both free to rotate a little bit and move around which is the key. As you can see it goes under the wheel flat side up. Then you just rotate the handle a little bit each the needles rotates and lifts  the wheel up works really well.

t-4.JPG

t-3.JPG

t-2.JPG

t-1.JPG

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16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

one of the problems in watch repair is we have urban legends.

No urban legend in this case, John.

The person attended WOSTEP in Switzerland and said, he learned the method there and its how the Swiss do it...

16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

For instance in the current Bergeon catalog I've snipped out an image here's a tool that will do the same thing as the tool up above.

I have it, too, but nearly never use it. It doesn't work with higher sitting wheels. Luckily the tool takes little space in the drawer ?

Frank

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The problem doesn't end with removal,  but manifests with reinstallation (usually after several serives) the wheel MIGHT come off in couple of weeks/ months,  wobbles( due to slightest bending of the pivot) enough to cause depthing with center pinion to the point it stops the watch later down the road.

I should have about fifty fhf70 movements and have seen this to be a culprit with indirectly driven minute wheel. 

Some folks peen the upper end of the hole, to provide for a firm fit, some glue, some question if heating things in oil bath can cause enough expansion for reduction of wear inside the hole during removal.

Side shake on its arbour tells you only so much about the arbour or the jewel underneath, never as much as visually checking things under high magnification.

I asked nickelsilver about this about a year ago, the answer was, remove/ replace with proper tool, he didn't add I might fail to get good results if I haven't mastered the task.

I say removal is a good idea only if you are sure you have first sourced new wheel and all parts underneath, a Rolex repairman doesn't need my advice as the piece is worth new parts, an fhf70 in a twenty year old west end watch, is not worth the expense of same new parts, which is why I have about fso many fhf70 west end watches burried in box looking at me straight in the eye.

?

Joe

 

 

 

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On 12/1/2020 at 12:07 PM, Poljot said:

You will be able to clean and oil that particular area without removing the Driving Wheel.

It can be easily damaged even if you use a proper tool. Warning! ?

This is what I did on the Rolex I just serviced and is now runs superbly.

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It’s up to each of us to decide what tools we use. I use my Bergeon Presto wheel puller and have never damaged a watch component with it. And I have used it many times. In fact, I used it for a similar Omega Cal 501 Seamaster 300 very recently. Re-fitting has never been a problem. It’s similar to fitting watch hands - they rarely require tightening. 
 

If you refuse to remove all driving wheels then you may have more difficulty cleaning some movements such a chronographs, where it is required for proper disassembly. I serviced a Valjoux 7733 today, and that is an example of where I wouldn’t want to leave the 4th wheel driving wheel attached as you can’t easily remove the 4th wheel otherwise. 

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On 12/2/2020 at 3:48 AM, praezis said:

The person attended WOSTEP in Switzerland and said, he learned the method there and its how the Swiss do it...

there is several problems with this answer I'm only going to cover one of them for now. First the original tool suggested by nickelsilveris interesting because his location is in Switzerland or so he claims? So if this is how the Swiss do it why would somebody in Switzerland recommend this tool?

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3 hours ago, rodabod said:

II serviced a Valjoux 7733 today, and that is an example of where I wouldn’t want to leave the 4th wheel driving wheel attached as you can’t easily remove the 4th wheel otherwise. 

ETA7753 is another example where you have no choice ?

May I ask if you ever visited this watch repair shop in Edinburgh?

3 Holyrood Rd

I visited it several times in the past, but last year it was permanently closed..

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