How do I remove cannon pinion from new centre wheel ?

[mikepilk 137]

I bought a new centre wheel for a Seiko Bellmatic and it came fitted with a cannon pinion.

How do I safely remove the cannon pinion ?

I tried pushing a very thin broach down the centre, but I had to hold the cannon pinion in tweezers. It didn't work as I didn't want to squeeze too hard on the pinion.

Seems daft, and it might be obvious .... but it hasn't come to me yet !

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by mikepilk

[nickelsilver 1,132]

For something like that I would set it in a bench block, and use levers to lift the CP off the wheel (with paper between the levers and wheel). Otherwise, I would grab the pinion in a collet in the lathe, then grab the CP in a collet in the tailstock and pull it off while rotating the spindle by hand. You could try the same with two pinvices but they aren't all created equal and many will mark parts, and also it would be tricky getting them tightened and manipulating them without stressing the parts. 

[Poljot 254]

Hi there. Three easy options:

- use a Hands Removal Tool, just like one here

https://www.amazon.ca/Jewellers-Tools-Watch-Remover-Plunger/dp/B017MPZRQM

or

- use staking tool to punch out the Central Wheel while holding the Cannon Pinion with pliers

- put some oil in side the Cannon Pinion, hold the Cannon Pinion and try to rotate the Central Wheel while trying to separate from the Cannon Pinion

Edited November 28, 2020 by Poljot

[mikepilk 137]

23 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

For something like that I would set it in a bench block, and use levers to lift the CP off the wheel (with paper between the levers and wheel). Otherwise, I would grab the pinion in a collet in the lathe, then grab the CP in a collet in the tailstock and pull it off while rotating the spindle by hand. You could try the same with two pinvices but they aren't all created equal and many will mark parts, and also it would be tricky getting them tightened and manipulating them without stressing the parts. 

That was my first attempt. Sat in a hole in a block, and use levers. I stopped as soon as I realised I would be levering against the wheel. I somehow need to lever against the bottom of the wheel pinion. Maybe just push in some tweezers.

I don't have a lathe 

[Poljot 254]

Also, this video shows you "how-to"

 

 

 

[mikepilk 137]

33 minutes ago, Poljot said:

Hi there. Three easy options:

- use a Hands Removal Tool, just like one here

https://www.amazon.ca/Jewellers-Tools-Watch-Remover-Plunger/dp/B017MPZRQM

or

- use staking tool to punch out the Central Wheel while holding the Cannon Pinion with pliers

- put some oil in side the Cannon Pinion, hold the Cannon Pinion and try to rotate the Central Wheel while trying to separate from the Cannon Pinion

Option 1 - I have those exact hand removers, and some others, but you are levering against the wheel, and I don't want to bend it.

I need to lever against the bottom of the wheel pinion. 

The cannon pinion is very long, no punch will fit down the middle.

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by mikepilk

[nickelsilver 1,132]

If you have a decent pinvice, get ahold of the center pinion, then grab the canon pinion by the leaves with brass/nickel tweezers or tweezers lined with tape (choke up in the tweezers, not the tips), hold the CP as you twist the center wheel pulling it out. It ought to come.

[Poljot 254]

14 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Option 1 - I have those exact hand removers, and some others, but you are levering against the wheel, and I don't want to bend it.

I need to lever against the bottom of the wheel pinion. 

The cannon pinion is very long, no punch will fit down the middle.

 

Improvise, and be creative with K&D tools - use a thin plate between to avoid direct contact with the wheel.

Of course NOT every punch will work. Again, improvise. See the photos below - that's how i removed similar stubborn cannon pinions. I even used this method to remove Central Hand on 7753 ETA when no other option worked due to extremely tight fit. No damages, no scratches, no bent parts, and it took a few seconds. Good luck.

[Poljot 254]

26 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Option 1 - I have those exact hand removers, and some others, but you are levering against the wheel, and I don't want to bend it.

 

 

Actually you are NOT going to bend the wheel if you place it flat onto Staking Tool Table (or Anvil) using large enough hole, suitable just to accept the bottom pinion.

[mikepilk 137]

16 minutes ago, Poljot said:

Actually you are NOT going to bend the wheel if you place it flat onto Staking Tool Table (or Anvil) using large enough hole, suitable just to accept the bottom pinion.

You have to lever against something, or you just pick up the whole assembly. And what you lever against is the wheel - actually the thin spokes. I didn't think it would be a problem until I tried it!  When removing hands you are pressing against the dial. This presses against the wheel, and I think the force required to remove the pinion would distort it. 

I'll try @nickelsilver suggestion - hold the cannon pinion in a pin vice, and use brass tweezers on the wheel pinon.

I wish I had some of those very fine punches you have - my set doesn't have any. I could try a broach in a pin vice and push it down the hole as you suggest.

[nickelsilver 1,132]

30 minutes ago, Poljot said:

Actually you are NOT going to bend the wheel if you place it flat onto Staking Tool Table (or Anvil) using large enough hole, suitable just to accept the bottom pinion.

It sounds like you're saying to have the wheel on staking tool die, with the pinion passing through, then tap the pinion out of the canon pinion- which would tap it out of the center wheel as well, which would be more than counter productive. Or am I reading it wrong? The only way a staking type tool would work would be a Platex, where the wheel can go in a thin V die, supporting the bottom of the canon pinion, and tap the center pinion through. One of the only useful things about a Platex in my opinion.

 

 

[Poljot 254]

3 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

It sounds like you're saying to have the wheel on staking tool die, with the pinion passing through, then tap the pinion out of the canon pinion- which would tap it out of the center wheel as well, which would be more than counter productive. Or am I reading it wrong? The only way a staking type tool would work would be a Platex, where the wheel can go in a thin V die, supporting the bottom of the canon pinion, and tap the center pinion through. One of the only useful things about a Platex in my opinion.

 

 

You are reading it wrong. Staking tool die or anvil with a suitable hole was suggested for use in conjunction with Hand Removal Tool.

[Poljot 254]

7 minutes ago, Poljot said:

 

 

14 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

 The only way a staking type tool would work would be a Platex, where the wheel can go in a thin V die, supporting the bottom of the canon pinion, and tap the center pinion through. One of the only useful things about a Platex in my opinion.

 

 

K&D staking tool has a perfect equivalent attachment, similar to Platex

[mikepilk 137]

Thanks for the suggestions @nickelsilver, @Poljot

Levers and hand removal tools WOULD bend the spokes of the wheel.

I tried pin vices at both ends, and pin vice + brass tweezers, but it was on too tight.

Eventually did it by sliding the tweezer points between the bottom of the cannon pinion, and the wheel pinion. Not an ideal method - I posted for advice to avoid using it, but it worked.

I wonder why they sell them like that ?   I don't expect such problems when I get new parts.

 

[Poljot 254]

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Thanks for the suggestions @nickelsilver, @Poljot

Levers and hand removal tools WOULD bend the spokes of the wheel.

I wonder why they sell them like that ?   I don't expect such problems when I get new parts.

Some people claim that they could bend a coin with their fingers..

Take a look at the pictures. This is not an identical wheel, etc, but it gives you better idea how to use Hand Removal Tool in similar situations without bending anything. You are not going to deform a staking tool die, right?

[mikepilk 137]

47 minutes ago, Poljot said:

Some people claim that they could bend a coin with their fingers..

Take a look at the pictures. This is not an identical wheel, etc, but it gives you better idea how to use Hand Removal Tool in similar situations without bending anything. You are not going to deform a staking tool die, right?

That's exactly what I did, and this is why it can damage the wheel :

The force you apply by either levers, or hand pullers, at distance 'x' from the centre, has to be reacted by the wheel spokes. I believe there's a good chance they will bend before the pinion releases. 
I tried under a microscope, and could see the centre of the wheel start to distort, so I stopped.

 

[Poljot 254]

Two comments:

- it appears that you missed my comment above about using a thin plate between these surfaces. I made several such plates resembling to Dial Protectors, but using thicker plastic (guitar pick) and metal. The idea is to prevent dents and to hold down the entire surface of the wheel (similar to K&D staff removal tool / attachment which pushes the balance wheel down while staff is being knocked)

- my preferred method requires some good eye-arm & don't breathe  coordination just for a few seconds while delivering one punch using a fine punch shown in my previous posts. No staking tool die, just two hands. You will be surprised how effective that method is.

But the most important thing is that you were keeping everything under control and STOPPED as soon as you noticed something was about to go wrong.

Congrats!

[Poljot 254]

5 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I wish I had some of those very fine punches you have - my set doesn't have any. I could try a broach in a pin vice and push it down the hole as you suggest.

Aren't you just 30 miles away from CousinsUK? Get all what you need :-). Every parcel / order, no matter how small it is, costs me about 13GBP..

[Jon 119]

14 minutes ago, Poljot said:

Two comments:

- it appears that you missed my comment above about using a thin plate between these surfaces. I made several such plates resembling to Dial Protectors, but using thicker plastic (guitar pick) and metal. The idea is to prevent dents and to hold down the entire surface of the wheel (similar to K&D staff removal tool / attachment which pushes the balance wheel down while staff is being knocked)

- my preferred method requires some good eye-arm & don't breathe  coordination just for a few seconds while delivering one punch using a fine punch shown in my previous posts. No staking tool die, just two hands. You will be surprised how effective that method is.

But the most important thing is that you were keeping everything under control and STOPPED as soon as you noticed something was about to go wrong.

Congrats!

It's a similar principle I use to distribute the levering pressure when removing something friction fitted, such as a friction fitted minute wheel on the top of a barrel on a Baumgartner 866

[mikepilk 137]

20 minutes ago, Poljot said:

Two comments:

- it appears that you missed my comment above about using a thin plate between these surfaces. I made several such plates resembling to Dial Protectors, but using thicker plastic (guitar pick) and metal. The idea is to prevent dents and to hold down the entire surface of the wheel (similar to K&D staff removal tool / attachment which pushes the balance wheel down while staff is being knocked)

- my preferred method requires some good eye-arm & don't breathe  coordination just for a few seconds while delivering one punch using a fine punch shown in my previous posts. No staking tool die, just two hands. You will be surprised how effective that method is.

But the most important thing is that you were keeping everything under control and STOPPED as soon as you noticed something was about to go wrong.

Congrats!

Yes, I did miss your mention of a thin plate. That would solve the problem. 

Unfortunately I don't have anything suitable. 

Your method sounds scary! 

I'm not far from Cousins, postage costs me about £3, but I get deliveries in a day or two

Take care

Mike

[mikepilk 137]

6 minutes ago, Jon said:

It's a similar principle I use to distribute the levering pressure when removing something friction fitted, such as a friction fitted minute wheel on the top of a barrel on a Baumgartner 866

I could have used razor blades! 

Great idea, thanks

[Poljot 254]

11 minutes ago, Jon said:

It's a similar principle I use to distribute the levering pressure when removing something friction fitted, such as a friction fitted minute wheel on the top of a barrel on a Baumgartner 866

I like your creativity! We simply can't have a separate tool for each task!

I bought a pair of levers from Cousins not realizing how huge and thick they were. Never used them.. need to file them thin and hopefully use in future. A couple of Hand Removal tools and trusted Inverto 18 Staking Tool so far helped to do the job.

[Jon 119]

I recently bought a K&D Inverto after upgrading from  my first staking set... Wow, what a beautiful bit of tooling and really versatile as you say!

[Poljot 254]

21 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Your method sounds scary! 

I'm not far from Cousins, postage costs me about £3, but I get deliveries in a day or two

Take care

Mike

I can't claim this method as mine as I found it in one of those classic 1930s-1950s watch repair books. The timing was perfect as i struggled to remove one stubborn cannon pinion and really was about to bend or brake the central wheel pivot. It took literally a few seconds to remove it using a fine punch and LIGHT hammer :-). 

[Poljot 254]

8 minutes ago, Jon said:

I recently bought a K&D Inverto after upgrading from  my first staking set... Wow, what a beautiful bit of tooling and really versatile as you say!

Congrats! Great tool. I used it today to replace a broken balance wheel staff on Illinois pocket watch. Nice & easy.

[nickelsilver 1,132]

6 hours ago, Poljot said:

 

K&D staking tool has a perfect equivalent attachment, similar to Platex

Only attachment I've seen for K&D or any other staking tool similar to what Platax can do is for roller removal and wouldn't work with anything other than a 2 arm balance (maybe a 3 arm?).