Balance not rotating anymore

[Negot8or]

8 minutes ago, Poljot said:

You did not remove Top balance cap jewel for cleaning and oiling? If that's so - this is the issue! Hole Jewel and Cap Jewel must be cleaned and oiled (top)

No.  I don't know how.

And that wouldn't explain why it would be working before and then not working after a second teardown.  

[Poljot]

1 minute ago, Negot8or said:

No.  I don't know how.

And that wouldn't explain why it would be working before and then not working after a second teardown.  

That's very easy. Stay on-line for a few minutes - i will search my photo library (not the same watch, but same idea). Will post some photos in a few moments.

[Negot8or]

1 minute ago, Poljot said:

That's very easy. Stay on-line for a few minutes - i will search my photo library (not the same watch, but same idea). Will post some photos in a few moments.

Thank you!

[Poljot]

2 minutes ago, Negot8or said:

Thank you!

You will need 0.5mm screwdriver to remove two small screws to release top / cap jewel. Just make sure to remove the hairspring (one screw) to avoid any damages while removing these two tiny ones.

Clean both, hole and Cap jewels (peg-wood gently, soft brush, then place a tiny drop of light oil on back side of the cap screw, and install it. Flip the bridge, secure both small screws - you are done!

 

[Poljot]

This was WWI Tavannes 13'''

[Negot8or]

Just now, Poljot said:

This was WWI Tavannes 13'''

Makes me REALLY nervous about messing with the hairspring given my inexperience.  I suppose there's no time like the present to learn.

[Poljot]

13 minutes ago, Negot8or said:

Makes me REALLY nervous about messing with the hairspring given my inexperience.  I suppose there's no time like the present to learn.

You are NOT going to mess with the hairspring at all!

Remove the balance and place it upside down

Loosen up Balance Cock screw (side) by a turn or two (do not remove it completely) and separate the balance from balance cock

Now you gained access to those two screws

Edited November 30, 2020 by Poljot

[Negot8or]

5 minutes ago, Poljot said:

You are NOT going to mess with the hairspring at all!

Remove the balance and place it upside down

Loosen up Balance Cock screw (side) by a turn or two (do not remove it completely) and separate the mainspring from balance

Now you gained access to those two screws

Again, I appreciate the encouragement.  I'll let you know how it turns out (will try to find time tomorrow).

[Poljot]

1 minute ago, Negot8or said:

Again, I appreciate the encouragement.  I'll let you know how it turns out (will try to find time tomorrow).

Good luck! it's easy. Please note i corrected myself - was typing too fast: "balance from balance cock". Not sure how Mainspring came into conversation :-). Probably because i was posting something about Illinois pocket watch mainspring just a moment ago.

You will feel happy once you see your watch running! Take your time, make sure your screwdriver is in good shape, use magnification.

[anilv]

Since it ran at the first attempt I would guess the balance jewels are not the issue.

1. Start by removing the balance and pallet fork.

2. Wind the mainspring a bit (half turn or so), do the wheels turn and slow down smoothly? If they do then the problem is escapement related. Check pallet fork and balance impulse jewel. If the wheels do not turn then add another turn or so of the barrel. If the wheels still do not move or move slowly then you have a wheel train issue. Remove the bridge and check for some dirt which is preventing whee train movement.

Good luck.

Anilv

[Poljot]

8 minutes ago, anilv said:

Since it ran at the first attempt I would guess the balance jewels are not the issue.

1. Start by removing the balance and pallet fork.

2. Wind the mainspring a bit (half turn or so), do the wheels turn and slow down smoothly? If they do then the problem is escapement related. Check pallet fork and balance impulse jewel. If the wheels do not turn then add another turn or so of the barrel. If the wheels still do not move or move slowly then you have a wheel train issue. Remove the bridge and check for some dirt which is preventing whee train movement.

Good luck.

Anilv

Dear Distinguished Member,

Have you read 2 pages of troubleshooting that was already done?

How could you say that the balance jewels are not the issue, when we were just told that the Top Balance Jewels (hole & cap) were never cleaned and oiled? Are they self-cleaning and self-lubricating by design? If a dry and dirty Balance Jewels can't stop the balance from rotation then what would stop it?

Edited November 30, 2020 by Poljot

[Negot8or]

26 minutes ago, anilv said:

Since it ran at the first attempt I would guess the balance jewels are not the issue.

1. Start by removing the balance and pallet fork.

2. Wind the mainspring a bit (half turn or so), do the wheels turn and slow down smoothly? If they do then the problem is escapement related. Check pallet fork and balance impulse jewel. If the wheels do not turn then add another turn or so of the barrel. If the wheels still do not move or move slowly then you have a wheel train issue. Remove the bridge and check for some dirt which is preventing whee train movement.

Good luck.

Anilv

Just for the record, if the fork and balance aren’t installed and I slightly wind the watch, EVERYTHING spins freely and when the power is out of the mainspring, the gears also continue to spin for a bit as inertia winds down. 
 

I’d also considered the fork as the issue. Cleaned the jewels and made sure that it would easily flick back and forth when the end was tapped and there was power in the mainspring. 
 

When everything is installed and I encourage the balance to spin, everything works. The fork ticks back and forth a few times, the train of wheels all turn. The balance just stops after a few ticks. 

[Poljot]

42 minutes ago, Negot8or said:

When everything is installed and I encourage the balance to spin, everything works. The fork ticks back and forth a few times, the train of wheels all turn. The balance just stops after a few ticks. 

That's why people service their watches every once in a while.

You are so close!

[anilv]

1 hour ago, Poljot said:

Dear Distinguished Member,

Have you read 2 pages of troubleshooting that was already done?

How could you say that the balance jewels are not the issue, when we were just told that the Top Balance Jewels (hole & cap) were never cleaned and oiled? Are they self-cleaning and self-lubricating by design? If a dry and dirty Balance Jewels can't stop the balance from rotation then what would stop it?

Because the first time it ran.. then it was dismantled to investigate the extra screw issue and thats when the problem started.

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, Negot8or said:

And that wouldn't explain why it would be working before and then not working after a second teardown.  

 

21 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 

Re check end shakes on escape, fork and staff arbours, a shim the previous watch destroyer had put under the cock gets washed away or falls of as you remove the cock, which reuslts in insufficient end shake on balance staff. 

Regs 

Joe

 

So checking staff end shake helps.

[Poljot]

31 minutes ago, anilv said:

Because the first time it ran.. then it was dismantled to investigate the extra screw issue and thats when the problem started.

Right, it ran, then the entire movement was taken apart and re-assembled. What happens when someone removes the balance and re-installs it without cleaning the balance top jewel? Correct, old gummy oil gets disturbed and / or pushed inside. That's how you contaminate the pivot and jewel. Now it does not run. I wonder why? Hmm

[Nucejoe]

6 hours ago, Poljot said:

 old gummy oil gets disturbed and / or pushed inside. That's how you contaminate the pivot and jewel. Now it does not run. I wonder why? Hmm

As a test, I add a drop of lighter fluid on top of end stone( cock side) stand ready to add more if needed, lighter fluid will penetrate and get to jewel+end stone and momentarily softens that dried oil, frees the pivot to turn, immediately puff air tangential to balance rim to keep it turning whilst ocasionaly puff on h/s coil too( gentle air flow), balance should take off running, if so you can safely suspect the issue was ďried oil and plan how you clean it.

[Poljot]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

As a test, I add a drop of lighter fluid on top of end stone( cock side) stand ready to add more if needed, lighter fluid will penetrate and get to jewel+end stone and momentarily softens that dried oil, frees the pivot to turn, immediately puff air tangential to balance rim to keep it turning whilst ocasionaly puff on h/s coil too( gentle air flow), balance should take off running, if so you can safely suspect the issue was ďried oil and plan how you clean it.

There are many other ways to waste time. Disassembling, reassembling, experimenting with adding a drop or two of lighter fluid to soften gummy substance. But the normal process is to disassemble, clean, dry, oil, reassemble and enjoy.

[Poljot]

On 11/29/2020 at 9:40 PM, Negot8or said:

 The balance just stops after a few ticks. 

I realize how nerve-wracking this troubleshooting saga can be for you, especially if you do not have a microscope. So many "little" details can prevent your watch from working. Even after proper cleaning and oiling of balance jewels, you will have to properly install balance (hairspring in relation to regulator pins as shown below, both pivots of the balance staff must be visually inspected to make sure they are not bent or broken, etc. 

[Poljot]

Hi,

I would recommend watching this video. This is obviously way too much, but it explains well how to align the balance wheel, impulse jewel, etc.