Fast rate but good amplitude - Hairspring manipulation advice/coaching requested

[ddrescueb2048]

I am working on a Seiko 7019 and it had a broken balance staff. I had some spare parts from other 7019s as I tend to use them for practice/experimentation so I decided I would try swapping the balance wheel out. I think it went okay but I believe I may have tweaked the hairspring slightly during the process.

My symptoms are:

• amplitude 250° horizontal and approx -15° vertical
• beat error 0.5ms
• rate 600+ seconds per day

I have tried cleaning the hairspring carefully and demag with no change in results. Inspecting for rubbing and shape I think the outer coil where the regulator pin goes may be the issue. See pic below:

 

Assuming you agree with this diagnosis here are a couple of approaches (A and B below ) I have thought about but would like your opinions or coaching regarding making this adjustment.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

[ddrescueb2048]

Actually, I was rereading what I posted and realized I probably had target fixation on the wrong place. See below on what I am currently thinking.

[Nucejoe]

Did you swap the balance or balance complete?

Do the number in picture B but aim at about 110 degrees anticlock.

Judging by where the stud appear to stand, it too is about 30-45 degrees out of beat.

[Marc]

I think I would be inclined to start a bit further around the outer coil, perhaps at about 5 o'clock in your pics, and gently coax the outer coil outwards as you spiral out in a clockwise direction. As it is that outer coil is deviating inwards from about the 5 o'clock position until it is touching the next coil in at about 7 o'clock. It needs to run parallel to the next coil in right up to the dogleg.

If you sort that part of the coil out you will probably find that the terminal curve is very much closer to correct than it currently appears.

[Nucejoe]

Hold at 5.30 push out at the bend.

[ddrescueb2048]

Thanks for the replies. I will give it a try holding around 5-530 and pushing out a bit closer to 7.

Quote

Did you swap the balance or balance complete?

I swapped only the balance

[Nucejoe]

Just now, ddrescueb2048 said:

Thanks for the replies. I will give it a try holding around 5-530 and pushing out a bit closer to 7.

I swapped only the balance

Hairpsring out of one might be incompatable with the balance out of the other.

But lets get the hairspring sorted out first.

[ddrescueb2048]

Okay, I think the hairspring is sorted out now:

 

Nucejoe, I think you may be right that the balance is wrong. That did improve things a good deal but the rate is still hundreds of seconds fast.

[Nucejoe]

11 minutes ago, ddrescueb2048 said:

Okay, I think the hairspring is sorted out now:

 

Nucejoe, I think you may be right that the balance is wrong. That did improve things a good deal but the rate is still hundreds of seconds fast.

Looks good. even if incompatable, you sure did a perfect job.

[ddrescueb2048]

Thanks Joe!

Although ambitious for me at the moment, would it make sense for the next phase of this learning experience to attempt to remove the balance staff from this balance and attempt to move it to the original balance?

It's worth pointing out that this watch has zero value to me. This is all just for the purpose of learning so my heart wont be broken if I turn it into scrap.

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, ddrescueb2048 said:

Thanks Joe!

Although ambitious for me at the moment, would it make sense for the next phase of this learning experience to attempt to remove the balance staff from this balance and attempt to move it to the original balance?

Building a complete balance out of original balance+hairspring is good practice. 

I am not sure about swapping balance staff, I call it a case of trial and experience. 

Good luck.

 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I am not sure about swapping balance staff,

for the most part balance staffs are considered one time use. then the staff is usually cheap just get a new one.

then maybe my confusion when you are busy swapping parts did you swap the hairspring also? In other words a different hairspring is now on a different balance wheel?

[ddrescueb2048]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

for the most part balance staffs are considered one time use. then the staff is usually cheap just get a new one.

then maybe my confusion when you are busy swapping parts did you swap the hairspring also? In other words a different hairspring is now on a different balance wheel?

I had 2 scrapped 7019 movements:

1. With pivots in good shape and no hairpsring
2. With hairspring but broken pivot

I thought I would try swapping out the balance wheel to get a complete movement. The only hairspring I've got is the original one from the watch I'm working on. I just thought finding a balance staff for this would be unlikely since its such a cheap movement. However, I admit that this is my first project that I'm trying to take beyond just a simple clean and oil so I was likely on the wrong path here.

I stumbled across this thread: 

which seems to discuss where I am heading with this and it sounds like this project may be going back to the scrap box until I acquire a lathe and some turning skills.

Edited November 26, 2020 by ddrescueb2048

[JohnR725]

something that comes up continuously in this discussion group is if the hairspring is a removable component obviously you can remove it and put it on another watch. Physically that is 100% correct but there is a tiny little problem. That is hairsprings are typically vibrated for each balance wheel. I don't know of Seiko actually does it for each one or they do it for a grouping of them traditionally every hairspring only goes on the balance wheel came from. typically with the exception of American pocket watches where the balance wheels had screws that you could interchange to get your balance wheel to match the hairspring. So if you swapped your hairspring from one balance wheel to another and are having a timing issue providing it's not some other problem it's because it's the wrong hairspring for your balance with.

Ideally if your watch was running slow then you could take some weight off the balance wheel an attempt to get it to match your hairspring. Unfortunately on these balance wheels it's hard that put weight back on.

there here's a link to your balance staff and all the other watches that use the same staff.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=T_[JWD[

 

[ddrescueb2048]

2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

something that comes up continuously in this discussion group is if the hairspring is a removable component obviously you can remove it and put it on another watch. Physically that is 100% correct but there is a tiny little problem. That is hairsprings are typically vibrated for each balance wheel. I don't know of Seiko actually does it for each one or they do it for a grouping of them traditionally every hairspring only goes on the balance wheel came from. typically with the exception of American pocket watches where the balance wheels had screws that you could interchange to get your balance wheel to match the hairspring. So if you swapped your hairspring from one balance wheel to another and are having a timing issue providing it's not some other problem it's because it's the wrong hairspring for your balance with.

Ideally if your watch was running slow then you could take some weight off the balance wheel an attempt to get it to match your hairspring. Unfortunately on these balance wheels it's hard that put weight back on.

there here's a link to your balance staff and all the other watches that use the same staff.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=T_[JWD[

 

Thanks John, this is very helpful.

[Nucejoe]

If you have a collection of hairsprings out of scrap seiko balances, you got a good chance of vibrating a balance.

Any member of 7019 family fits your balance. 

Go to Dr ranfft to see its family generation, Dr ranfft doesn't list 7019, since it itself is a member of 7017, so google 

seiko 7017 ranfft,

Scrol down the calibers to see 7019. All members of same beat listed fit your balance, some of them may turn compatable. if you get a slow rate out of one, your watch is fixed.

[ddrescueb2048]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Since I've never done this before I decided to source a replacement staff. I'll be reading "Staking Tools & How to Use Them" in the meantime. I'm sure we will all be talking again in my next "what have I done wrong" thread about broken staffs.  Thanks again!