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Pocket Watch hairspring alignment


Seth

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Good Morning to all I hope you are all keeping safe and well during this tough time.Can anyone help me with how do I align the hairspring on a pocket watch movement that I am working on?? The hairspring stud is not attached to the balance cock and is a separate part which is screwed to the bottom plate.When I remove the balance cock,stud and balance the hairspring seems to sit central when the balance cock is turned upside down and the staff is in the top jewel.As soon as I refit the balance assembly to the movement it is still central until I fit the stud,this then throws the whole spring off center.Does this indicate that the spring is too long and needs adjusting in the stud pinning point or is there something else that I need to investigate.Any help or suggestions will be gratefully received,photo enclosed.Regards to all and keep safe,Seth.

IMG_20201021_104754941.jpg

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Is this a bereguet overcoil or suppose to be?    Don't coils need a bend at the end of the terminal curve to center, sometimes a bend at the begining of curve as well. 

Check the hight above the coil( between the coil and cock)  excessive height indicates an overcoil is to be fitted.

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45 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Is this a bereguet overcoil or suppose to be?    Don't coils need a bend at the end of the terminal curve to center, sometimes a bend at the begining of curve as well. 

Check the hight above the coil( between the coil and cock)  excessive height indicates an overcoil is to be fitted.

Hi there Many thanks for your reply I have an identical watch movement by the same maker and the hairspring looks exactly the same as the one that I am having problems with.It is not a Breguet overcoil spring and the watch movement that is ok and running if I release the stud screw the stud stays in the same position.The one that I am having problems with the stud when the screw is released it moves out to the edge of the plate thereby allowing the hairspring to return to a central position.Both hairsprings look identical in size and they both appear to be the same distance away from the cock.Regards Seth.

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If I correctly understand the problem? .  The question now is, what causes the stud move to the edge of the plate( stud holder)?  If regulator slot is tightly closed and grips the HS tight,  it can push to move the stud. 

 

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2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Is this a bereguet overcoil or suppose to be?    Don't coils need a bend at the end of the terminal curve to center, sometimes a bend at the begining of curve as well. 

Check the hight above the coil( between the coil and cock)  excessive height indicates an overcoil is to be fitted.

Hi there Many thanks for your reply, you don't understand what I mean.On the working watch movement if I remove the screw fully from the hairspring stud the stud remains in situ with the hairspring central as it is when the movement is running.On the movement that I am having problems with if I remove the hairspring stud screw fully the stud is then pushed out to the edge of the plate as the hairspring returns to its central position.This seems due to the tension in the hairspring which is out of round when the stud is screwed in place but,when the screw is removed from the stud the spring returns to its correct shape thereby pushing the now free stud to the edge of the plate.I assume that this is something to do with the pinning position of the hairspring in the stud.Regards Seth.

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7 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

So, does stud holder hold the stud in wrong position?  and drives the coil out of center?

 

Hi there, many thanks for your reply you still don't understand what I mean,the stud is an "L" shaped piece of polished steel with a hole for the screw and a small locating peg that fits into the plate.With the complete balance fitted and the stud screwed down to the plate the hairspring is out of shape as in my photo.When I remove the screw from the stud and lift the stud from the plate so that the peg is clear and the stud is free then the complete hairspring reverts to its correct shape(circular) with the coils evenly spaced and the stud is then pushed out to the edge of the plate by the action of the spring going back to its correct shape.Regards Seth.

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47 minutes ago, Seth said:

the stud is an "L" shaped piece of polished steel with a hole for the screw and a small locating peg that fits into the plate.

umm L shaped stud !     so the horizental leg of stud wont sit alighend with the end curve of hairspring.  getting close ain't I. 

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1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

So, does stud holder hold the stud in wrong position?  and drives the coil out of center?

 

Hi there,I think that you are getting nearer to the problem.If you look at my photo you will see that the stud has a horizontal arm that the hairspring is pinned to.Follow that arm and there is a short vertical piece approximately 3mm high then ther is another horizontal piece with a screw which attaches to the plate,this foot as I call it has a locating pin which fits into the plate preventing the stud from moving.If the stud is screwed in its correct position the spring is distorted out of round,if the stud is unscrewed and freed from its position the spring takes on its correct shape.It looks like something to do with the actual pinning point of the hairspring or possibly the spring needs more of a sharper bend in the terminal curve what do you think???? Regards Seth.

IMG_20201021_104754941.jpg

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Excuse my manners please , I forgot to say Hi all along.

Could the plate been bent?  since the locating pin and screw that hold the plate down on mainplate seem intact keeping the foot part firmly in place.

Dose it look like you can get things aligned by bending the plate to bring back the stud in correct  position? I guess it will be by trial and error, I remove the plate to do all the bendings with the plate far far away from the oscilator.

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I am not sure what plate you are referring too. However the correct procedure is to remove the hairspring from the balance and de-grease it and then manipulate the hairspring. There are vids on youtube showing how I believe our Mark has one there. 

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8 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Excuse my manners please , I forgot to say Hi all along.

Could the plate been bent?  since the locating pin and screw that hold the plate down on mainplate seem intact keeping the foot part firmly in place.

Dose it look like you can get things aligned by bending the plate to bring back the stud in correct  position? I guess it will be by trial and error, I remove the plate to do all the bendings with the plate far far away from the oscilator.

Hi there Many thanks for your reply and suggestions,I will strip the movement down tomorrow and investigate your suggestion.One thing that I have found out is that if I gently touch the 4th wheel the movement self starts and runs for about 10 mins but the amplitude looks about somewhere between 70-90 degrees.Thinking about your suggestion this could be causing the 4th wheel to bind if the plate is slightly bent.I will investigate this further tomorrow and update you on this.Regards and keep safe,Seth.

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2 minutes ago, clockboy said:

I am not sure what plate you are referring too. However the correct procedure is to remove the hairspring from the balance and de-grease it and then manipulate the hairspring. There are vids on youtube showing how I believe our Mark has one there. 

Hi there Many thanks for your reply I have already done that and as I have said earlier when the stud is free from its screw mount and top plate the spring is in its correct shape.When the stud is screwed back into position on the top plate the spring is distorted out of round.Regards Seth.

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33 minutes ago, clockboy said:

I am not sure what plate you are referring too. However the correct procedure is to remove the hairspring from the balance and de-grease it and then manipulate the hairspring. There are vids on youtube showing how I believe our Mark has one there. 

Stud holder is not integrated on the cock, instead a plate is screwed down on mainplate the upper part of which points toward the staff and is to hold the stud in correct position.

It seems not to perfectly pointing towards the balance jewel, that is where I got the idea of bending it back to correct position.

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Following.  If I get a bit of time I will research this too and see if I can help.  But I think I see what Nucejoe is driving at.  The hairspring *would* be the correct shape, but only when the stud bracket is *not* mounted.  The act of mounting the stud bracket seems to be distorting the spring.  The end of the spring mounted to the stud seems like it should locate elsewhere?  Does that sound like what we must correct?

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5 hours ago, Seth said:

Hi there Many thanks for your reply and suggestions,I will strip the movement down tomorrow and investigate your suggestion.One thing that I have found out is that if I gently touch the 4th wheel the movement self starts and runs for about 10 mins but the amplitude looks about somewhere between 70-90 degrees.Thinking about your suggestion this could be causing the 4th wheel to bind if the plate is slightly bent.I will investigate this further tomorrow and update you on this.Regards and keep safe,Seth.

With the coil non-concentric like this, the oscilator would expectedly be plenty out of beat, so lucky it oscilate to 70 degrees. I take it you mean to take the cock shaped plate out to unbend, no need for furthur strip down. 

@KarlvonKoln you and I are on the same wavelength. 

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7 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

Following.  If I get a bit of time I will research this too and see if I can help.  But I think I see what Nucejoe is driving at.  The hairspring *would* be the correct shape, but only when the stud bracket is *not* mounted.  The act of mounting the stud bracket seems to be distorting the spring.  The end of the spring mounted to the stud seems like it should locate elsewhere?  Does that sound like what we must correct?

Good Morning Many thanks for your reply,you are almost correct.Yes when the stud is not mounted the hairspring is in the correct shape but,when I mount the stud it distorts the hairspring out of shape.Well I have removed the balance cock and left the balance in situ with the stud mounted so I can see the amount of distortion of the hairspring.After about 1 hour of very gently stroking and manipulating the spring I have managed to get it looking almost to the correct shape.On refitting the balance cock and gently placing the spring in the regulator pins the movement sprung into life.On placing the movement on my Timegrapher the amplitude has come up dramatically so I will be tweaking it to see if I can improve the performance of the movement.Photos of the Timegrapher display and an identical type of stud and screw from a scrap movement I obtained for spares.Regards and many thanks for your help.Seth.

IMG_20201022_054853424_MP.jpg

IMG_20201022_055055992.jpg

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11 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Yes. 

Hi there,I have replied to Karl and told him what I have done.I removed the balance cock and left the balance in situ with the stud mounted in position to see how much the spring was out of round.After about 1 hour of gently stroking and manipulating the spring I have managed to get it looking almost the correct shape.On replacing the balance cock and gently placing the spring in the regulator pins the movement sprung into life.The amplitude has come up dramatically so I will be tweaking this movement to see if I can improve the performance.Photos of the Timegrapher display and an identical type of stud and screw that I have from a scrap movement that I have obtained for spares.Regards,Seth.

IMG_20201022_054853424_MP.jpg

IMG_20201022_055055992.jpg

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1 minute ago, Nucejoe said:

I see, Do we know what amplitude to expect? and isn't BE too much, I suspect some of the error is due to imperfect centricity of coil.

Hi there Many thanks for your reply,I don't know what amplitude to expect from this movement as it is made around 1895-1898 but the other movement that I have that's running well and loosing 2.5-3 mins per 24 hrs this amplitude is 172 degrees and has been running and keeping time for the last 2 years so I will just gently see if I can improve the performance of the movement and see if it gains or losses time over a period of time.Regards Seth.

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The sine wave effect on the timing machine could be an indication of magnetism. You're not going to get the right amplitude because you have no idea what the lift angle is. Then out of curiosity is it an English lever or Swiss lever because you're not showing us the full plate so we can see who made it?

Then as you found out it's removing the balance wheel has issues. You can either unpin the hairspring at the holder but you have to put it back where you found it. Then yes it is, and that they hairspring is much longer than needed. Or you can move the entire holder with the balance wheel but the holder is really heavy and that can lead the hairspring distortion. The same as re-pinning the hairspring usually leads to hairspring not being perfect. This means you get to have the fun of straightening out the problem. In other words it gets bent at the holder and you have to reform the curvature correctly. It's not going to have much of a terminal curve like a modern watch. At least they usually don't a lot of the American pocket watches have almost 0 terminal curve. But still has to have the right shape if you want they hairspring centered.

Then one of the things I would do is I would look at it visually to make sure it's in beat that's sometimes a clue to help you figure out where to pin the hairspring again.

 

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4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

The sine wave effect on the timing machine could be an indication of magnetism. You're not going to get the right amplitude because you have no idea what the lift angle is. Then out of curiosity is it an English lever or Swiss lever because you're not showing us the full plate so we can see who made it?

Then as you found out it's removing the balance wheel has issues. You can either unpin the hairspring at the holder but you have to put it back where you found it. Then yes it is, and that they hairspring is much longer than needed. Or you can move the entire holder with the balance wheel but the holder is really heavy and that can lead the hairspring distortion. The same as re-pinning the hairspring usually leads to hairspring not being perfect. This means you get to have the fun of straightening out the problem. In other words it gets bent at the holder and you have to reform the curvature correctly. It's not going to have much of a terminal curve like a modern watch. At least they usually don't a lot of the American pocket watches have almost 0 terminal curve. But still has to have the right shape if you want they hairspring centered.

Then one of the things I would do is I would look at it visually to make sure it's in beat that's sometimes a clue to help you figure out where to pin the hairspring again.

 

Good Morning, Many thanks for your reply and help, the movement is an English lever and as I have said earlier by gentle stroking and manipulating the spring I have managed to get the movement to run so I am going to see how it performs for 48 hrs and then I will investigate if I can get the movement to perform any better.I am extremely pleased that I have managed to actually get the movement to run of sorts so I think it's just a matter of patience and time( which I have plenty of as I'm retired) to tinker with this at my leisure.Once again I thank you all for your time,help and replies and I will keep you all updated on this movement.Regards to all and keep safe during this tough time.Seth.

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Good Morning to you all and I hope you are all keeping safe and well.As promised a quick update on my hairspring problem.Well the movement has been running for almost 48 hours and it is showing an amplitude of 160-168 and a beat error of 2.2  the lift angle appears to be 52.I refitted the dial and hands just to satisfy my curiosity to see if the watch movement gained or lost any time.Since fitting the dial and hands at 1400 hrs on 22/10 it is now 1200 hrs on 23/10 and it appears to have gained 1 minute.I will keep an eye on this and I think I will leave this alone as it seems pretty good for a movement well over 100 yes old.Regards to you all and keep safe,Seth.

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