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This, Just in! (Staking and jeweling set)


Tudor
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So, I firstly want to extend thanks to @oldhippy for taking a look at this before I parted ways with my hard earned bucks. 

I wanted to get ONE set, with which I could stake and set jewels with (and take to the grave). Otherwise, you end up spending double in the long run.

Bear in mind I do know how this thing works; however, have no experience using it. Yet. My sights are set on some dead Chinese clone movements taking up space which will be my first victims (enter diabolical laugh here)!

This thing is in outstanding condition. Seller double-boxed and bubblewrapped it nicely. Wooden storage box itself is quite lovely- solid, not veneered. Some lemon oil and polish and it should look like new. Photo is "as-unwrapped" condition.

The tool itself is gorgeous. Really looks to be new. Light brasso (Honestly, probably not needed) and then hard wax and it'll look brand new(er). The table shows all the graining from when it was originally ground. A couple tiny specs of rust only. Literally as good as new. The table lock works perfectly. Stake guide is tight, and has light surface rust inside (found when I passed a very snug fitting stake through the bore). It has no perceptible wear. Definitely good. And this can run inverted stakes. The fully Monty. The bad: I need to snug the set screw for the jeweling attachment a bit.

I think all the stakes and stumps are here. Minor damage to the Bakelite stake holders, but I have superglue and I'm not afraid to use it.

Then I'll load a collet in the lathe and start polishing all the stakes n stuff. I have the original manual with it, so I'll be able to tell if I'm missing anything. Currently, only the skill set is missing.

Who doesn't like getting a new tool!?!? I'm pretty happy at the moment, despite a global pandemic.

IMG_0139.JPG

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Was that the one on ebay?  I think I may have been eyeing it before.  Low on funds right now, so I did not bid.  

If it's the same one, I'm glad it was taken in by someone who will use it.  It looks to be of good quality and seems complete.

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It did come from eBay, yes. But it was a buy it now deal, so no bidding. 

I did get a slight reduction via the offer process but I now understand why he held pretty firm on his price- this thing is in amazing condition. No blocked holes, no significant rusting on anything, box is not splitting at the seams. This could be a museum piece once it’s done. 

I want to get some of that corrosion inhibiting paper to put in the box. Using hard wax on the stakes isn’t going to work with the tiny holes and oil will make a mess, although I’ll probably have to use oil for the short term. 

I’m thinking double sided foam mounting tape will be a better option than glue to mount the Bakelite stake storage racks. Anyone have other ideas? Maybe silicone adhesive? It seems clear they need to have some “give” to keep from breaking. 

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Corrosion inhibiting paper is a must have. I would bit a tiny piece in all the boxes and draws that had tools and parts in to save them. Can't help on the glue side as there are so many on the market these days. Glad you got what you wanted and it turned out to be a good deal. 

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Thank you Sir!

I am quite pleased; I don't think a "better" deal could be had, unless found at a local tag sale (highly unlikely).

I did build a small rapport with an older watch and clock repairperson in town, who has since closed/retired/vacated the building. I did not have his (home) number, but he has mine. I never heard anything from him so I hope he's okay, although his "disappearance" occurred prior to the pandemic anyway. 

I had hoped to learn a bit and be able to acquire his tools and supplies (apparently the basement of the building was full of tools, books and parts, but I never saw any of that) for a 'fair for both of us' price, but it just never happened.

I've given up hope on that now.

*---*

Any thoughts on the varied surface finishes on these stakes? Top and bottom areas of the shaft are spin-polished; working tips are mirror polished (most likely lapped perpendicular) and the center area of the shaft is "brushed" lengthwise. This "brushed" area is what rides in the guide. Maybe it is just a cosmetic decision, as the scratches of use will then be hidden, but I figured I'd ask if there is another reason for this treatment you are aware of.

The ones I am polishing, I am respecting the original finishing to the best of my ability. I do the lengthwise "brush" pattern with medium Scotchbrite; then chuck them and spin polish the ends with the same medium Scotchbrite. Seems to match the original finish pretty well.

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I think, after my labor, the price of this kit will triple...

I am oiling the stakes as I clean them and storing them in a bag. Once they are all clean and oiled, I may run the “holy tipped” stakes through ultrasonic with acetone to completely clear everything out. 

But I need a plan for corrosion control. Just touching these tool steel stakes will induce rusting, as I’ve seen on the pre-cleaned examples. 

The oil may be the answer- once the carrier evaporates it is very thin. It’s designed (marketed) for use on micrometers and other gages, so very thin. I use it on the lathe ways as well. 

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MY FINGERS HURT!!! The lengthwise rubbing of these is killing my fingers!

I have been cleaning parts daily, as time allows. As if this evening I’m half way through the stake cleaning process. (Looks like close to two weeks will be needed to restore this) I copied the pages from the original book so I can inventory the stakes, check them off the list, and then make a new (short) list of what I may be missing. 

But I now know I have all 12 reamers (Swiss made by the way) and pretty sure all the stumps too. Possibly a couple duplicate stumps, and if so, I’ll let you guys know in case someone needs it. Same for the stakes- if I have “doubles” I’ll let you guys know, in case someone needs it. 
 

PS: I have an idea to make stakes for hand setting. The idea is to use the Burgeon plastic tips in a stake of my making. Then I can precisely set hands without investing in a hand press. That’s the idea anyway. Currently I install hands by, er, hand, with a set of A-F plastic tipped tools. They’re fine but pressing perfectly straight is difficult with them. 

Edited by Tudor
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Don't be afraid to pay a bit to get good condition. This one looked quite nice and I'll have two weeks into it cleaning the stakes...

If you see brown rust on the stakes, it's going to be a big cleanup. 

But, if you can get one with a jeweling attachment, that can offset some of the labor of cleaning. 

So far, on mine, I have one broken stake. No luck finding another yet.

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I finished cleaning stakes and stumps (25 stumps) today. It is a complete set, no doubles and one broken. Very nice condition. 
 

Some of the stumps were not easy to polish but it was worth it. I have everything grouped by type; I will clean up the box and re glue the Bakelite stake holder rack. One rack had broken, but I was able to reattach the piece, and I also flowed a bit of glue between the holders on the underside, so it was a sturdier piece. One broken holder happened in the past, and that piece wasn’t included for reattachment. 
 

The tool itself got some love too. The guide was very tight (too tight) in the top so I took it out, polished it and reinstalled it after cleaning. Now it rotates tightly, but does not require pliers. There’s a leaf spring inside the guide to keep the stake in use from sliding down onto the work. That’s a nice touch. And it works. Die plate also got a light coat of oil, although the plate is pristine. 
 

The box will be cleaned, oiled and then have furniture polish applied. I think after that, it’ll look good enough to not need a full tear down and refinish. 

5B64BF43-9CDC-4AD9-A809-899CA90CFCDC.jpeg

Edited by Tudor
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Thank you for your help again choosing it!

As nice as it was, it still took a lot of labor to restore it. I need to store the stumps and treat the wood, but it absolutely has been saved for another lifetime of service. 

The first owner certainly took good care of it. I imagine as the years passed it wasn’t getting as much use, so not as much care checking for corrosion. I still need to get some anti rust paper, but everything is lightly oiled for now. 

I’ll do a final glamour photo, once it’s all done, to close out the thread. 

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Possibly the final photo of this- I put all the stumps away and cleaned and waxed the chrome plated stand and jeweling lever. 
 

Still need to do the wood but no rush. 

954E2E30-8ABD-4FA9-B792-CA36826ACE1D.jpeg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Made my first “home made” stake today. Just to see how it came out. 

Simple 2mm bore and .150 (3.8mm) OD. Tried to match the finish of the old stakes. 

I used drill rod as stock. A bit softer I think but should work for simple shapes. 

A9366324-5132-47C3-AD97-1FBC308BD96D.jpeg

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The rod is pretty hard. I used a solid carbide drill for the center hole and the carbide turning insert for the OD was having trouble getting a bite (the rod was deflecting). Not as hard as the other stakes but still damn hard. 
 

I could drop a diamond on it and give you Rockwell C hardness if you like. And I could test the one broken stake I have for direct comparison. 

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Drill rod without any other specification in the U.S. would generally refer to O1 steel, which is about perfect for punches and stumps. Sounds like you had some trouble machining it (it's pretty nice to machine), maybe you have prehardened stuff? Should cut like butter with HSS. For punches you would generally harden the business end, leaving the rear soft. Temper to a straw or dark straw color. They need to resist deforming when rivetting blue tempered steel, but not shatter. I've actually been meaning to order some from the U.S. as the usual suppliers (MSC, McMaster) have it in 0.001" increments and it's easy to get a size that hits the nominal 4.70mm they are. I have a K&D punch here that measures right on 4.702mm and a Star that is at 4.698mm.

 

I've never figured out the chicken/egg deal with staking sets. All the U.S. manufacturers I know of used 4.7mm stakes and 4mm locating diameter on stumps. 3/16" is 4.763mm, but that won't fit. 4mm is 4mm. Odd. It seems the watch companies were using a mix of metric and inch from early on, as 8mm became a norm for small lathe collets, among other examples. One mystery nobody has solved is the thread on Schaublin W20 collets. Those were based on a U.S. design, from Waltham if I'm not mistaken- their American Watch Tool Company, which branched off into Wade (larger lathes) and Derbyshire (still in existence) for the smaller lathes. Anyway, the thread is a very strange 1.666mm pitch, which is weird in both metric and inch. I was very surprised when I bought my screwcutting lathe here to find that its leadscrew is actually an inch screw, all else being metric, and the thread chart shows very clearly 1.666 as one of the standard threads is can cut.

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I used 3/16” drill rod and it fits my C&E Marshall set just fine. 

They offer undersize (which would have a maximum of 3/16) and oversized (with a minimum of 3/16). And tighter tolerance, which may also fit well. I got lucky I guess. 

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I'm measuring a few tenths over .184 on the broken stake I have in work (hoping to someday find a replacement*)

3/16" is nominally (exactly) .1875"

4.7mm is .185"

My drill rod is measuring .185"

So, the drill rod I have is probably 3/16" max rod, which means it will have a "minus tolerance". two-and-a-half-thousandths is less than a hair... I would not be at all suprised to find out that the original staking tools were American made, with 3?16 stakes which was adopted by the European community and "gentrified" into the Metric system. If it was the other way around, a standard Metric size (such as 4.5mm or 5mm) would be the standard.

Haven't measured hardness yet, but the rod came from McMaster-Carr when it was purchased for another project. Most likely the least expensive 3/16 drill rod they have, whatever that works out to be.

*My broken stake is a 7L (or L7) if anyone comes across one.

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14 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Drill rod without any other specification in the U.S. would generally refer to O1 steel, which is about perfect for punches and stumps. Sounds like you had some trouble machining it (it's pretty nice to machine), maybe you have prehardened stuff? Should cut like butter with HSS. For punches you would generally harden the business end, leaving the rear soft. Temper to a straw or dark straw color. They need to resist deforming when rivetting blue tempered steel, but not shatter. I've actually been meaning to order some from the U.S. as the usual suppliers (MSC, McMaster) have it in 0.001" increments and it's easy to get a size that hits the nominal 4.70mm they are. I have a K&D punch here that measures right on 4.702mm and a Star that is at 4.698mm.

 

I've never figured out the chicken/egg deal with staking sets. All the U.S. manufacturers I know of used 4.7mm stakes and 4mm locating diameter on stumps. 3/16" is 4.763mm, but that won't fit. 4mm is 4mm. Odd. It seems the watch companies were using a mix of metric and inch from early on, as 8mm became a norm for small lathe collets, among other examples. One mystery nobody has solved is the thread on Schaublin W20 collets. Those were based on a U.S. design, from Waltham if I'm not mistaken- their American Watch Tool Company, which branched off into Wade (larger lathes) and Derbyshire (still in existence) for the smaller lathes. Anyway, the thread is a very strange 1.666mm pitch, which is weird in both metric and inch. I was very surprised when I bought my screwcutting lathe here to find that its leadscrew is actually an inch screw, all else being metric, and the thread chart shows very clearly 1.666 as one of the standard threads is can cut.

I have a Simonet 450 lathe. Its a bit of work to do on it. But it works. Though, unfortunately missing the milling and grinding equipment. And some W20 collets. And yes. Not only strange pitch threads on them. They are expensive as they were made I gold. Nice quality though!  Bit big for watch work I want to learn about. So also looking for a 6 or 8mm collet lathe. Dream would be a F3 mill to play with too. Hopefully in the future. ?

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