Mystery Clock, French, German, Other ?

[wls1971]

This is a large 8 bell spring driven bracket clock, they turn up now and again but no one has ever put a definite answer to who made them or which country they came from, this one is signed on the dial with the retailer"Moyle Chichester" the movements are never signed but just display a hour glass and sythe trademark:

 

The movement is in two parts the bottom third of the movement consists of the chime mainspring barrel, chime drum, fly, hammers and bell nest it is connected to the top half of the movement which is pretty much bar a few modifications a quarter strike Ting Tang the large bracket across the movement is what holds the two parts together.

This accounts for the rather close grouping of the winding holes on the clock face the chime mainspring is wound via an arrangement of intermediate wheels.

 

The clock has a anchor escapement with a heavy pendulum with no adjustment other than via a Brocourt type adjustment with slow fast adjustment on the front of the clock face

 

The wheel work and pivots are very fine though out the clock 

 

There is plenty of speculation as to who made these clocks but they usually turn up with english retailers names on the dial one name most often cited as a maker is a company called "Muller and Kern" Breslau which was part of Germany but is now Poland, the trademark site Mikrolisk attributes Muller and Kern to the trademark but that conclusion was based on the fact that someone had once seen one of these clocks with both trademark and name on the same plate but no photo has ever linked the two, people also state that Muller and Kern never produced their own movements they just bought and sold movements by other manufacturers.

Personally there is much about these movements that makes me think they must be french the wheel work and pivots seem just too fine to be German to me.

 

 

 

[KarlvonKoln]

I don't know as much about bracket clocks as I'd like.  But I will be following this thread to learn more.  I do think it's interesting that there seems to be a lengthy transition period where some such clocks were using tenons and wedges alongside screws.  Was there a reason for this?  Did some parts need to be more quickly or easily removed for service?  Were screws more expensive to make?  Was torque applied in-regular-use to some parts which would have loosened a screw, if a screw had been used there?  

[wls1971]

18 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

I do think it's interesting that there seems to be a lengthy transition period where some such clocks were using tenons and wedges alongside screws.  Was there a reason for this?

It is certainly an aid to servicing when putting plates together and lining up pivots with pivot holes when the plates are pinned rather than screwed together, when they are screwed together the pillars can sometimes be a pain to keep in place.And being pinned allows more room to spread the plates while still keeping alignment makes it easier to get the pivots in.

[oldhippy]

That is French right down to the dots punched into the wheels. Everything about that movement tells me so. But that case is in the style of many German clocks I have seen. The name on the dial is just the person who is selling it. Anyone can have their name printed on clocks and watches.  

[wls1971]

3 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

That is French right down to the dots punched into the wheels. Everything about that movement tells me so. But that case is in the style of many German clocks I have seen. The name on the dial is just the person who is selling it. Anyone can have their name printed on clocks and watches.  

Yes very Germanic in style of case it also has a matching wall bracket, but my thoughts are also a French movement plus all the major parts are stamped with the movement number which the French were apt to do.

[oldhippy]

A shot in the dark. Could have been made near the French/German border it certainly has that French/German feel to it.  

[wls1971]

18 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

A shot in the dark. Could have been made near the French/German border it certainly has that French/German feel to it.  

Yes or they are a bought in French movement cased in Germany, The movement also gives the impression that it is a clever adaptation to an existing movement they do turn up at a rate of 2 or 3 a year at auction so are hardly mass produced, it works very well the chime mainspring barrel is also much larger than it needs to be it does give a very good consistency to the chimes over the week, but I think it would run a good while longer between winding.

[HSL]

Found this one on a Swedish auction site.

"DESCRIPTION: Müller & Kern, Breslau, Germany (current day Wroclaw, Poland) for Hamman & Koch, New York & Paris, chiming mantel clock, 8 day, time and strike with chime playing on eight nested bells, spring driven brass movement in a heavy black slate case with brass trim on a stepped and molded base with turned bun feet, polished black slate dial with incised roman numerals, gilt hands, all topped by a large cast gilt eagle with outstretched wings."

"
 

[wls1971]

48 minutes ago, HSL said:

Found this one on a Swedish auction site.

"DESCRIPTION: Müller & Kern, Breslau, Germany (current day Wroclaw, Poland) for Hamman & Koch, New York & Paris, chiming mantel clock, 8 day, time and strike with chime playing on eight nested bells, spring driven brass movement in a heavy black slate case with brass trim on a stepped and molded base with turned bun feet, polished black slate dial with incised roman numerals, gilt hands, all topped by a large cast gilt eagle with outstretched wings."

"
 

Thank you for this it could be a key to who made the clocks If the Trademark is Muller and Kern the retailer is Hamman and Koch but this clock has a third stamp in the middle for Chevillier Fnt / A Paris who where movement manufacturers in paris my feeling is they would have produced the clock for Muller who them supplied and distributed them, this would prove the clock is definitely French.

[HSL]

Think you are right, according to Mikrolisk Müller & Kern is just a clock wholesale company "Uhrengrosshandlung".
So the manufacturer of the movement is probably Chevillier.

"