Seiko 5

[Vich]

Hello Folks, A Seiko Saga

 

got myself a cheap Seiko 5 from the Bay (India). 

 

This was bought with the intention of stripping it down and cleaning it and putting it back together as I have never done a Seiko before.  It came with a cheap black strap which I have changed out of stock but there were a couple of other problems.

 

Visually it looks ok to me but I am not au fait with the detail of the watch.  Looking at it the dial is a degree or two off centre and you can see the second markings only between 11 and 1.  Next i noticed that it kept stopping at the same place and on examination it was always when the second hand was on top of the minute hand. 

The Day and date on this watch are crystal clear unlike some others I have seen which show the effects of age and look a bit grimy.  oddly I have noticed on the Indian Imports that very often the dial is re finished (often to quite a high standard) but they rarely do anything with the day and date wheels. The case is quite good and is stainless steel.

I opened it up and the old guy looks a tad battle weary

 

 

Whipped off the weight and had a go with the fibre brush and the corrosion goes quite deep.  There is corrosion on a couple of the wheels which I will attend to when I strip it and clean it. the Weight could have been catching a case sometime but also looks a bit like water damage.  Oddly the ball race is good and the weight spins freely with little play and no marks on the case inners.  The weight may or may not be original but lets face it that goes for all the parts (and a lot of the stuff I have tinkered with by the time I am finished).

 

The balance is really free and goes well for a minute then stops when the hands meet.  Its under warranty but It would cost about eight quid to send it back tracked so that is not happening.

 

I have not bothered with photos as it is a simple fix but I put on my rubbers and whipped out the stem and coaxed out the movement which though quite firm was only held in by a plastic holder - is that normal ?

 

When I got my scope on the movement sure enough the hands were touching and were not all parallel and I noticed that the second hand was a tad on the loose side so I took them all off.  The hour hand went back on fine but the minute and second hand just felt too loose so off they came again.  I got out my trusty toe nail clippers (stop wincing chaps) and gave them a little squeeze and on looking through the scope the barrel on the second pointer had just closed slightly which was good I had to lap the minute hand a bit as there is not much to work with (thank heavens for the microscope) but that worked as well and when they went on they had to be pushed on rather than slid on like before.  I managed to get them all on ok parallel and with adequate space between and the second hand started up on its own straight away, always a good sign. Back in it went with 12 at the right place but could not get the second markers fully into view so that is indicative of something not right. The ring under the lens may be a tad too large or the dial is slightly out.  Not too much of a problem though I will notice it all the time.

 

Seiko 5 dont appear to have a winding mechanism via the crown (is this right ?) and on poking around I noticed I could move the barrel with the screw and the click was working so rather than exercising my right hand (resist please) I used a screwdriver to wind the barrel up - seems quite easy and effective.

 

It worked for two days solid and seems to be keeping good time and in fact is on my wrist now.  It will go in the queue for clean and service.

 

Next a question for those with timegraphers.  I have not got one and wondered if there were any recommendations.  As an amateur I dont really want to spend a fortune definitely no more than £200 and have been looking at the chinese offerings.  I read about problems with the resolution and interpretation of the digital display in another thread but really as a tinkerer I just want to short cut the regulation routine which can be a pain, if there are other attributes then that is a bonus.  I don't really want to mess round with paper print outs (ok - philistine)

 

All advice greatfully received,

 

Cheers,

 

Vic

 

 

[Geo]

Hi Vic, it looks like you were sold a bit of a pup, but I'm sure you will train it well although it will never be a Crufts champion.

On the subjects of timegraphers, I have a Chinese Timegrapher 1000 and wouldn't be without it. If you search the net you will be able to get one at a really good price.

[clockboy]

These Seiko,s do not wind from the crown. There are some vids on youtube showing how to wind which is basically shaking them for a while in different directions. The seiko,s I have worked on have never had good amplitude but they were old calibers  I have used a Timegrapher 1900 for approx. 2years and cannot fault it. Bay item No. 330779298281

​In my opinion you cannot really repair / service watches without a timing machine.

 

[bobm12]

Hi Vic,

 

All good advise here! I bet you will enjoy servicing this watch.

 

By the way, that plastic ring is important since it is the track for the date ring. It also places the dial correctly for the date/day @ 3 depending on the crown position. This means that if your day/date combination is OK (they may misalign between them but that is another issue) the dial feet will define where the crown should be based on the holes in the plastic ring. i.e. it is the dials that are made with different dial feet positioning to accommodate the combination of crown/date (crown @ 3, day/date @3 or crown @ 4ish, day/date @ 3). Therefore, if you are going to change the dial (which I believe you said was not showing the second marks well, they are not expensive), it is important you get the right dial based on the feet.

 

This plastic ring also serves the function of keeping the movement correctly in the case and it is place in a very specific way around the main plate, respect to the dial holes and the stem. The hands can be had for little money either on ebay and/or other suppliers, they are 150/90/20 if I'm not mistaken.

 

Some of those watches come with the dial feet glued to the ring and no dial feet/broken dial feet so be careful during disassembly. I'm sure you can get that watch in real good shape in no time at all. It looks good right out from your pictures and you seem to be doing a great job so far! Check out Lawson walk through on the same movement.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[Blacklab]

Cant really add to what my esteemed colleagues have already said, but would highly recommend the Chinese Timegrapher 1900.

 

However a word of warning. There is a glut of refurbished fives coming out of India (and some from the UK) at the moment, the biggest giveaways are the Seiko logo (wrong typeface), they normally have the word automatic and are painted in garish colours. Yes they are cheap but you do get what you pay for - normally a bit of a dog with a rusty movement given the WD40 dip treatment. For not a lot more you can find quite nice original examples. Caveat emptor!

[Geo]

Good info as ever BL. :)

Your esteemed colleague here is about to get esteaming. I've just finished my first pint and now on my second! :)

[Blacklab]

I'll have you know Geo that I have just returned from the local holster holserery err establishment & am slightly dessip. I think I will go fix up on my old scrappers & put it on fleabay for lots of readies, I mean that's what most people do dont  they?

[Vich]

Well it's still going strong and keeping good time so it has earned some attention. I think I will spend a few quid and get some replacements for it. The price was only about the same as 5 pints of Guinness and I missed my Friday dinner time drink due to problems with the Baxi conking out so I have evened up on the money stakes.

Anyone have any tips on getting a proper seiko dial, I would hate to buy a dodgy one. 7019 528B A1 on the case back, 21 jewels on the movement if that helps. I can source a new weight but if it keeps working like it is, I may not change it.

Cheers,

Vic

[bobm12]

Hi Vic, something like this:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Seiko-Stock-Pilot-Dial-/301549089435?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4635b9f29b

 

Some call it K-Type...I don't know this terminology, it could be either because of the crown position respect to the date/day window or the dial style itself (markers, etc) like here:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/X2-Seiko-SNZH55-k-type-Dials-/291378890780?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43d789081c

 

or here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/X2-Seiko-SNZH57-k-type-Dials-/301543097660?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item46355e853c

 

In any case, the dials are probably discontinued for that specific model number but they are all the same (almost) as long as you don't get a divers dial without seconds (for those the seconds are sometimes incorporated when combined with a chapter ring).

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[Blacklab]

Nice find Bob, although these are for 7S26/ 7S36 movements & the dial feet may be different, if they are the feet can be removed & dial pads used.

 

Probably worth a punt Vic as the original ones are rarer than hens teeth.

 

I think the caseback may be from a different watch as the number given turns up this- http://www.speedtimerkollektion.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=7879 but then again that may be wrong.

[Rob]

Dagaz is popular with the Seiko modding community.

[bobm12]

You are absolutely correct BL,

 

I just have a feeling the movement is 7S26 and not 7019! The plastic ring, rotor and overall movement makes me think it is. Either way, those dials are for crown @ 4ish and day/date @ 3 so they should work! I can't see the shape of the jewel spring on the balance cock but it wouldn't really matter since they are interchangeable anyway...

 

@Rob - Very true Rob, but he is expensive...I bet one dial from him is worth this whole watch at about US$15 to US$30 a pop. Most don't have the day/day window to accommodate the day feature which might not be a good idea with this watch. Still, it is a good site for modding and such!

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

Edited March 7, 2015 by bobm12

[Vich]

Thanks for the heads up Bob I will opt for the first option and see if I can get it sent to my son.  I will have a closer look at the movement.

 

Cheers,

 

Vic

[Vich]

Had another look on the weight and it is marked 7S26A.  Assuming the weight is right for the movement I might be lucky with that Face.  Will try for it anyway.  The size of the glass is 28.5 mm which again sort of hints the face may be ok.

Cheers

 

Vic

[bobm12]

Hi Vic,

 

I have no doubt the face will be OK. Even the old movement will take it. If you are planning on servicing this movement and it is indeed a 7S26A, you will need a 1.20 mm Philips screwdriver (usually proprietary from Seiko and available from most suppliers for about US$10). I believe, but never tried, a regular 1.2mm Philips or so (pennies for the tool) might work but you'll never know. The said screwdriver is only used for this single screw which is different from the other 3 regular flat 1.4mm that -- all together -- hold the date dial guard in place.

 

This little screw, in case it pings away, is #0016705 and the screwdriver is listed as a Seiko S-921. You will note that starting version C, this is not necessary since all 4 screws are regular flat 1.4mm ones. As a curiosity, you will only need a 1.4mm screwdriver to work on this movement, almost exclusively. The rotor/oscillating weight with ball bearing is interchangeable or would work with many of these movements versions and vintages so you may expect a different version of the 7S26 under it...and/or the 7002 or other. Previous to the 7S26, most calibers numbers size 11.5 ligne were stamped on the "barrel and train wheel bridge". If you think you are up to this, detach the rotor with a 2.5mm screwdriver and take a picture of the movement under it so we can be sure what you are working with...at least it would work for me.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[Vich]

I will take that photo tomorrow.  Thanks for the help

 

Cheers,

 

Vic

[Vich]

Well here is a photo and a small video (sorry it is shaking a bit, I have not had a drink today :angel: ).  The watch is still going so despite appearances, I will persevere. 

 

 

IMG_1075.MOV

 

The bad news is I missed out on the dial and I could kick myself as stupidly I restricted the price to about half what I paid for the watch $15.51 and it went for $16.01. The dial was perfect for me appearance wise but I will just have to bide my time.  I don't really go for the "Sports" type and I would prefer the jewel count to be right if it is shown - with patience another one will turn up.

 

Had a look at Lawsons teardown and it is really good - it will help me greatly along with help from Bob,  To use Georges analogy I will see what I can do with the runt of the litter. I have worn it for a few days now and I think it is going to be a keeper when I finish it.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Vic

[Geo]

I look forward to seeing the end result Vic! :)

[Vich]

Its amazing what you find just poking around the internet:

 

http://www.clockmaker.com.au/diy_seiko_7s26/

 

this is definitely worth a look if you are interested in the Seiko 7S26.

 

Cheers,

 

Vic

[bobm12]

Hi Vic,

 

I believe you do have a 7S26 movement. What version has to be guessed but it could be A. Here is the telltale bridge from this movement:

 

 

The previous model bridge has some extra holes and stuff (not too different but not interchangeable). On the other hand the balance cock is interchangeable and you have a previous movement one! The telltale sign is the jewel retaining spring in the shape of a 3 leaf whatever-they-call-it while the original is simply a long thing with a slot in the middle.

 

The page you found is the original free Seiko course mentioned in Lawson's walkthrough...but it is not complete I'm afraid. Still, there is enough information there to do everything sometime with a little interpolation upon reassembly. :) They have a yahoo group that doesn't seem to work and is trying to move on their own towards a newer version. Still, thank you for the reminder, it is a good course...and for the money :)  The tool kit recommended are at best mediocre and I would not use them myself, the supplier doesn't carry them anymore.

 

Don't worry, you can work well in this movement and it will be a lot of fun. In the end, you will have a runner and if anything goes amiss chances are the parts are either available or a cheap donor can be found. Worth case scenario, you can always use the whole brand new NH36 from CousinsUK which is an upgrade to this vintage one with a couple of improvement: Hack seconds and manual wind in addition to old features.

 

I'm anxious to see this project Vic and if anything, just ask! We are standing by.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

 

Ps. I forgot to add, it may even be a 7S36 if the extra 2 jewels are present in a tiny bridge on the dial side of the main bridge. If so, two of the wheel pivots will be different (escape wheel for instance) from the 7S26 but not much is different. If this bridge has been removed but it is indeed a xx36, the end play may be wrong for those 2 wheels and the timegrapher will play tricks on you.

Edited March 9, 2015 by bobm12

[Vich]

Thanks Bob,

 

I may have already found another dial, hopefully I shall be successful this time.

 

Cheers,

 

Vic

[bobm12]

Excellent Vic, good luck this time!

[Vich]

I have just got a message from the Bay saying that the Dial I missed out on is up for grabs as the purchaser either defaulted on the transaction or the seller has another to sell buy it now for $15.51.  So it is now winging its way to my son in LA and will get forwarded on to me from there. 

 

But in my zeal to find a replacement I actually have eyes on another one the same in the UK which I may put low bid on to keep as stock or re sell if I am successful then whilst trawling I came across something in the Netherlands

 

 

 

Now the dial is a bit light on the Number 11 side which somewhat spoils it but the movement seems like a quite clean 7S26A with a good looking oscillating weight and other stuff and there is another partial movement with loads of bits missing there that comes with the package 6602B it may be of some use and I suppose I have some spare hands to play with.  Anyway £9.64 has been spent and they are winging their way to me.

 

Spent most of the day with my good lady power cleaning the patio which was in great need as the flags had somehow changed from cream to grey/black. We decided to pack in at five to finish tomorrow and had a lazy quick dinner (Guinness pie, new potatoes sprouts and lashings of Bisto) and a bottle of Malbec to wash it down.  Its been a busy day and I am now fading slowly and expect to be asleep in the chair before long - its great being retired.

 

Cheers,

 

Vic

 

 

[Vich]

Got two of those dials winging their way to my son now, both in good condition, the seiko parts arrived safe and the movement looks sweet compared to my original. Will make up two and keep the best then flog the other after a good service.

cheers,

Vic

[bobm12]

Good to hear that Vic, keep it up!