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A. Schild caliber 1930 Amplitude question


DrG

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Hi everyone! 
 

I am restoring my grandfather’s Maxima alarm watch which has a AS1930 caliber movement. It’s a 40+ year old movement which was only serviced once about 20 years ago. I have cleaned it thoroughly and oiled it with appropriate Moebius oils. Below are the timegrapher readings at 70% wind and 100% wound. I am Used to the 300+ amplitudes of modern ETA movements and just wanted your opinion on the amplitudes I am getting on this caliber. As per the oficial parts document the lift angle is correct at 52. 
 

Thank you in advance! ? 

1E5920F0-DBA7-40C1-BD52-8F907FBA3DF6.jpeg

3ED24C8E-7473-49E8-84E1-879F2B980A27.jpeg

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Hi, I doubt you would have much problems with the watch running, but it would be good to get the amplitude over 250 which would give more satisfaction. Possible solutions;

a. Put in a new main spring if you have not already

b. getting the beat error a bit lower might get you a bit more amplitude

c. the wavy lines on the timegraph may be due to a little too much oil somewhere.

d, did you oil the pallet stones. If not, that might get you a little more amplitude

These are my suggestions if it helps.

 

 

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I think the performance is more than adequate for an old watch.

If it is at 70% wind, the mainspring may be getting a bit tired - could replace it.

I wouldn't bother trying to lower the beat error. That amount will have very little effect on amplitude, and there's always the risk of damaging the hairspring.

Looks like some noise on the exit pallet. Maybe worth re-cleaning the pallet jewels

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it would be nice if you would time in more than one position. Like crown down would be nice. Because resting on the end of the pivot we see it at its best hopefully.

What's interesting if you look at technical documentation from the watch companies are not obsessed with maximum amplitude. they're concerned about amplitude at 24 hours. Then of course there also concerned about timekeeping it 24 hours.

 

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7 hours ago, Michael said:

Hi, I doubt you would have much problems with the watch running, but it would be good to get the amplitude over 250 which would give more satisfaction. Possible solutions;

a. Put in a new main spring if you have not already

b. getting the beat error a bit lower might get you a bit more amplitude

c. the wavy lines on the timegraph may be due to a little too much oil somewhere.

d, did you oil the pallet stones. If not, that might get you a little more amplitude

These are my suggestions if it helps.

 

 

Thank you!! 
Both mainsprings are new (got them at Cousin’s UK). I did oil the pallets with 9415, but maybe they are over oiled. Will take out the pallet and reclean! ?  thank you again. 

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5 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I think the performance is more than adequate for an old watch.

If it is at 70% wind, the mainspring may be getting a bit tired - could replace it.

I wouldn't bother trying to lower the beat error. That amount will have very little effect on amplitude, and there's always the risk of damaging the hairspring.

Looks like some noise on the exit pallet. Maybe worth re-cleaning the pallet jewels

Thank you! I agree about the beat error. Adjusting would require repositioning the hair spring and that would be risky considering the amplitude is not that bad. I will reclean the pallet.
 

thanks again. ?  

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2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Have you checked pallet stones under high magnifiction? 

I did. Seems they may be a bit over oiled. Will clean again. I ordered the Bergeon 0.18 mm ergonomic oiler. Maybe I will wait for that one to arrive before oiling again. I have the normal Bergeon oilers but the smallest (red) still seems to carry too much oil for the pallets. Thanks. ? 

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1 minute ago, DrG said:

I did. Seems they may be a bit over oiled. Will clean again. I ordered the Bergeon 0.18 mm ergonomic oiler. Maybe I will wait for that one to arrive before oiling again. I have the normal Bergeon oilers but the smallest (red) still seems to carry too much oil for the pallets. Thanks. ? 

I bought one of those Bergeon oilers. Expensive but worth it. Especially for oiling the pallets. I use my stereo microscope on x20 

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use of the dip oiler's requires practice. One of the things that might be helpful it is if you can get your oil cup close when you insert your oiler you can see by the reflection how deep your going and if you dip it in as deep as you can you're going to pick up a lot of oil. just barely dipping it in you will get a smaller quantity but it does require practice. This is why typically in schools they teach students how to lubricate the watch with a dip oiler so they can practice and get a feel for how much oil to use. But it does require practicing lots of practicing. this is where schools are different than real life in schools they work on the same watches over and over and over again here your learning as you go which makes it much harder to learn.

Lubrication of the escapement is a really interesting subject with lots of different opinions points of view etc. Whatever you do it does have to be even. If one stone is somehow the different than the other or uneven quantities on the escape wheel it can show up on the timing machine as an un-even trace. or a variety of things can cause on the evenness if something isn't quite even on the pallet fork.

then a couple of links in case you haven't seen them. The first one a variety of interesting PDFs unfortunately this is not the complete set Omega has much more than this. But there's still some interesting ones here like number for the covers lubrication. Also at the bottom of the list number 81 I think you'll find helpful it has interesting things.

Then the video it makes a reference to lubrication and the escapement. Yes he really does cover the lubrication as the preparation that takes all the time and things to check etc.

the third link is here for several reasons one Iowa's like the look at the watch somebody servicing but it's here for another reason. As we know in this group amplitude is the most important thing and occasionally timekeeping. Notice when your watch was made up to about 1974. Have you ever wondered why the tech sheets typically don't cover amplitude? Now the reality is if you look at eta for instance it's typically not in the tech sheet but it is in the manufacturing sheet which are a little harder to find.

Now the reason why amplitude isn't prominently mentioned in the tech sheets especially in 1974 because the quantity of timing machines that would measure amplitude were limited choices. You don't even start to see a digital machine until about 1980 and then it was astronomically expensive. The Chinese machines like the 1000 doesn't even come onto the market until about 10 years ago. Witschi machines were available before that but you had be really obsessed to have one. even in the watch factories if you were to visit one they typically had paper tape machines they visually looked at the amplitude. So this is why it's not prominently featured on the tech sheets especially the early ones because it just wasn't practical the measure. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be concerned about it but watch companies do attend be more concerned about timekeeping than they are amplitude.

 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=working

https://youtu.be/Gy0o0KKBqeQ

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&AS_1930

 

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17 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

use of the dip oiler's requires practice. One of the things that might be helpful it is if you can get your oil cup close when you insert your oiler you can see by the reflection how deep your going and if you dip it in as deep as you can you're going to pick up a lot of oil. just barely dipping it in you will get a smaller quantity but it does require practice. This is why typically in schools they teach students how to lubricate the watch with a dip oiler so they can practice and get a feel for how much oil to use. But it does require practicing lots of practicing. this is where schools are different than real life in schools they work on the same watches over and over and over again here your learning as you go which makes it much harder to learn.

Lubrication of the escapement is a really interesting subject with lots of different opinions points of view etc. Whatever you do it does have to be even. If one stone is somehow the different than the other or uneven quantities on the escape wheel it can show up on the timing machine as an un-even trace. or a variety of things can cause on the evenness if something isn't quite even on the pallet fork.

then a couple of links in case you haven't seen them. The first one a variety of interesting PDFs unfortunately this is not the complete set Omega has much more than this. But there's still some interesting ones here like number for the covers lubrication. Also at the bottom of the list number 81 I think you'll find helpful it has interesting things.

Then the video it makes a reference to lubrication and the escapement. Yes he really does cover the lubrication as the preparation that takes all the time and things to check etc.

the third link is here for several reasons one Iowa's like the look at the watch somebody servicing but it's here for another reason. As we know in this group amplitude is the most important thing and occasionally timekeeping. Notice when your watch was made up to about 1974. Have you ever wondered why the tech sheets typically don't cover amplitude? Now the reality is if you look at eta for instance it's typically not in the tech sheet but it is in the manufacturing sheet which are a little harder to find.

Now the reason why amplitude isn't prominently mentioned in the tech sheets especially in 1974 because the quantity of timing machines that would measure amplitude were limited choices. You don't even start to see a digital machine until about 1980 and then it was astronomically expensive. The Chinese machines like the 1000 doesn't even come onto the market until about 10 years ago. Witschi machines were available before that but you had be really obsessed to have one. even in the watch factories if you were to visit one they typically had paper tape machines they visually looked at the amplitude. So this is why it's not prominently featured on the tech sheets especially the early ones because it just wasn't practical the measure. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be concerned about it but watch companies do attend be more concerned about timekeeping than they are amplitude.

 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=working

https://youtu.be/Gy0o0KKBqeQ

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&AS_1930

 

Thank you so much for all this info. Really helpful!! 

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I cleaned the pallets and reinstalled. Taking a slow motion video (below) I found another problem. The hairspring is not contracting in a concentric pattern. Likely due to the fact that it doesn’t seem to have a well defined end curve before the regulating pin. Unfortunately I don’t have the appropriate tools to resolve this issue now. The amplitude stayed basically the same in the 260’s. And the beat error is about 0.5ms. I think I am gonna leave it as is for now. What do you guys think? 

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The hairspring will not expand totally evenly as it is a flat type and does not have an overcoil. You get side-thrust as it breathes open and closed. I can see what you mean about the spacing of the outermost coils, but this is not a problem unless they touch. 
 

I’d regard your beat error as perfect and would suggest you don’t touch it! 

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More than once I saw that these chinese TMs seem to have too much vertical magnification. 
Don't know if this is fixed or selectable (I don't use a chinese TM), but it often makes the graph look frightening and provokes advice to 'better adjust the beat error' though 0.5 ms is near to perfect.

The above pictures correspond to about 3 ms beat error on a swiss TM in standard mode, without extra vertical magnification.

Frank 

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Looks like the pervious watch destroyer streightened the bend to spread coils furthure apart so outer coil wouldn't touch. 

I agree with rodabod, if it keeps good time on wrist there is no need risking removal of hairspring.

Did you detach the balance from cock to see the coil in the open?  when detached I  easily see any imperfection in the coil with 10X.

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2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Looks like the pervious watch destroyer streightened the bend to spread coils furthure apart so outer coil wouldn't touch. 

I agree with rodabod, if it keeps good time on wrist there is no need risking removal of hairspring.

Did you detach the balance from cock to see the coil in the open?  when detached I  easily see any imperfection in the coil with 10X.

Hi! Thank you for your reply. I did not detach the coil, maybe the next time I service it. 
 

BTW you should have seen the movement when I first disassembled it. There was oil dripping from the plates and oil/grease crusted everywhere. The person who serviced it used an excessive amount. 

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2 hours ago, DrG said:

BTW you should have seen the movement when I first disassembled it. There was oil dripping from the plates and oil/grease crusted everywhere. The person who serviced it used an excessive amount. 

That, is NOT what we meant, when we said "dip oiler"...

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4 hours ago, Tudor said:

That, is NOT what we meant, when we said "dip oiler"...

Haha. Yes, I know. I was just commenting on the condition of the movement when I first started disassembling it. It literally looked like the last person who serviced it “dipped” it in oil  Sorry if it was confusing. ?  

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