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Jacot tool and pivot file burnisher question


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That all sounds pretty spot on. The Bergeon burnisher works much better haha. Especially for conical pivots, I think you'll find the Vallorbe is only good for large pocket watches (the radius is too large). Strokes at maybe 2 back and forths per second. Force, that's hard to explain, but probably more than you think. Like a pound? Half a kilo? Half that for small pivots. Very fine oil. Traditional here is pure lavender or almond oil, but 9020 or 9010 is ok (but expensive). For some reason the natural oils seem to work better.

 

The rest is just practice!

 

Also- there's no need for further polishing with an abrasive. Part of the point of the Jacot is not finishing with abrasives.

Edited by nickelsilver
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The burnisher removes a small amount of material. But that is not it’s purpose. It’s purpose is two-fold. It folds over the surface grains of metal which makes them smooth and achieve a polish. So thi

There were numerous funny little lathe-type tools made for refinishing pivots over the years, usually with one pivot supported in a cone center and the pivot to be polished sticking through a hole in

That all sounds pretty spot on. The Bergeon burnisher works much better haha. Especially for conical pivots, I think you'll find the Vallorbe is only good for large pocket watches (the radius is too l

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9 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The rest is just practice!

Feeling quite inspired by your reply I decided to practice some more to develop a solid feel for it, but only to break off one of the snake tooth. Don't know how it happened. All of a sudden it just broke off. Tried to use the tool with the single tooth remaining but it seems to throw the wheel off balance making it near impossible to keep the pivot in the bed.

Watch repair can so brutal. I tried to "glue" the tooth back using UV-glue, but it just didn't work. Anyway can this be fixed somehow or do I simply get myself another Jacot tool (x times $100)? 😢

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I don't know what yours looks like, but the typical design is a pin which is cross drilled at the end, with two fingers held on by a brass or mild steel rivet. Some tools have much simpler drive fingers, just a pin that has been bent 45 degrees, then bent back straight to make two straight sections that are separated by a few millimeters in height. By swiveling this you can get the drive finger into very small and quite large diameter wheels. The original design is handier as the two fingers can often span a single wheel spoke and are more easily adjusted- but generally they won't span a balance arm so it becomes effectively one finger. Replacing one of the fingers would be a pain, definitely doable but a pain.

 

One that note yours should still work. The rivet holding the finger on the pin should be fairly tight, so there's some friction. I'm guessing you don't have a Steiner/Horia, but Horia sells spare parts (they are the only current producer that I know of, and while I haven't used a new one the old ones are the best I've seen). Looks like it's only 20 CHF! They are 1mm on the diameter that fits in the pulley.

 

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Pivotinglathe/Accessories/Fork.html

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16 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I'm guessing you don't have a Steiner/Horia, but Horia sells spare parts (they are the only current producer that I know of, and while I haven't used a new one the old ones are the best I've seen). Looks like it's only 20 CHF! They are 1mm on the diameter that fits in the pulley.

Well, this was some potentially very, very good news 😀 I have no idea what brand my Jacot tool is. However, the fork in the picture on the page you linked to looks exactly like the one on my tool.

Getting my tools out for some measuring, keeping my fingers crossed, hard! (I'll be back...).

BTW, @nickelsilver I truly appreciate you sharing your knowledge, experience and support! IMO, WRT should award you Most Valuable Professional-WRT:er 👍👍👍

Edited by VWatchie
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Another question on these tools.

Do you need to purchase one that suits the size of pivots that you are going to be working on?

Do all of the Jacot tools start at the size to do watches and then you have to buy other beds to suit larger pivots like those on clocks?

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24 minutes ago, Michael1962 said:

Another question on these tools.

Do you need to purchase one that suits the size of pivots that you are going to be working on?

Do all of the Jacot tools start at the size to do watches and then you have to buy other beds to suit larger pivots like those on clocks?

I'm unaware of a stand alone tool like the jacot for clocks*. There are lathe accessories that do the same thing that are suited to clock sizes up to a point.

 

A normal jacot will do from about 0.04mm (some, even some Steiner, start at 0.07mm) up to around 0.30mm, and have a special runner for tapered long pivots for 4th wheels. There's usually two runners for the normal pivots, one end with the beds, the other with lantern discs to work the pivot ends. Some will have an extra runner, with beds on both sides, for working on larger (center wheel) pivots. The runners are matched to the tool, no mixing around. 

 

But to sum up, a Jacot is for watches, most will be ok for pretty much any pivot size, with the possible exception of center wheels.

 

*there's a very excellent tool for clock pivots called a Rollimat. It uses a carbide wheel for finishing, and through a very clever design spins the wheel and bed around the pivot. This is basically how clock and watch pivots are finished industrially, except in those machines the wheel and disc spin while the bed is stationary. They're very expensive but for someone doing more than 2-3 clocks per week pay for themselves in short order.

 

Edited by nickelsilver
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1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

I'm unaware of a stand alone tool like the jacot for clocks*. There are lathe accessories that do the same thing that are suited to clock sizes up to a point.

Usually for clock wheels because they're so large they put them in a lathe and usually just polish a free hand. Or as mentioned there are adapters for the  lathe. Then there are tools but they're usually a bit more pricey which is why typically clock people are cheap it typically don't see them.

If you Google pivot polishing clocks is quite a bit here's a couple of interesting links.

https://www.davewestclocks.co.uk/pivot.polishing for clocks.htm

And I can give it to you but if you look at YouTube of course there's videos. I saw one set polishing pivots by hand I assume they would  the hand doing it in a lathe and I was wrong there actually hands spinning the wheel while there? It sounds more like their filing the pivots or to skip over that video.

Then the next link? As you scroll down you'll find an interesting PDF on burnishing. While it's aimed at clocks it's still interesting. Then scroll all the way to the bottom and look at the last two PDFs. The last two shows what happens when you have too much time on your hand and give access to electron microscope. Clock pivots are interesting because typically their steel on brass. I don't know of anything in the here would apply to steal on Sapphire. But I don't have time to read them right now I'm sure I've read those of long time ago probably the last time I was doing a clock.

https://abouttime-clockmaking.com/articles

 

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7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Horia sells spare parts

 

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

They are 1mm on the diameter that fits in the pulley.

Horia.jpg.631276a008f55d305a901320eaa66970.jpg

fork2.jpg.be2b525c06941dd4c2ec18ec3166f9a9.jpg

fork1.jpg.ff57925f7032d9b222aecdf2fbd1919d.jpg

fork3.jpg.79cc6c95da9a06979f3080bdd8b25260.jpg

It looks to me like Horias's fork is going to fit. Hurray! 😀 Hurray! 😀Hurray! 😀 I think I'll order two while am at it.

I Looked around on the tool itself and on the box to see if I could figure out the brand, but the only thing I found was the engraving on the tool in the form of a rooster. The beds on my runners  go from 0.04 to 0.36 and has the "special runner for tapered long pivots for 4th wheels" (0.14 to 0.32 in 0.03 and 0.04 increments) as mentioned in @nickelsilver's post above. So, anyone who knows what brand that rooster represents?

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@nickelsilver

I just placed an order for two forks at www.horia.ch, but all I got was an "Online Order Receipt" in my e-mail. Do you know if they will mail me an invoice to be paid? I couldn't find any detailed info on their site for the payment procedure.

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2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

@nickelsilver

I just placed an order for two forks at www.horia.ch, but all I got was an "Online Order Receipt" in my e-mail. Do you know if they will mail me an invoice to be paid? I couldn't find any detailed info on their site for the payment procedure.

I actually haven't ever ordered from them! Everything I  have of their's I got secondhand. I'm sure they'll follow up.

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11 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I'm unaware of a stand alone tool like the jacot for clocks*. There are lathe accessories that do the same thing that are suited to clock sizes up to a point.

 

A normal jacot will do from about 0.04mm (some, even some Steiner, start at 0.07mm) up to around 0.30mm, and have a special runner for tapered long pivots for 4th wheels. There's usually two runners for the normal pivots, one end with the beds, the other with lantern discs to work the pivot ends. Some will have an extra runner, with beds on both sides, for working on larger (center wheel) pivots. The runners are matched to the tool, no mixing around. 

 

But to sum up, a Jacot is for watches, most will be ok for pretty much any pivot size, with the possible exception of center wheels.

 

*there's a very excellent tool for clock pivots called a Rollimat. It uses a carbide wheel for finishing, and through a very clever design spins the wheel and bed around the pivot. This is basically how clock and watch pivots are finished industrially, except in those machines the wheel and disc spin while the bed is stationary. They're very expensive but for someone doing more than 2-3 clocks per week pay for themselves in short order.

 

Thanks for that. Going through looking at Rollimats now.

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On 2/23/2021 at 5:11 PM, nickelsilver said:

I actually haven't ever ordered from them! Everything I  have of their's I got secondhand. I'm sure they'll follow up.

There's always that tool, part, or what not needed and missing for almost every watch I work on and it always means weeks and sometimes months before it's in my hands. Repairing watches certainly tries your patience to the limit.

Still not a word from Horia. I just mailed them again, very politely asking about their payment procedure. This time in French, German, and English (in that order). Also asked Cousins if they could provide it but got a quick "no" in reply. So near, and still so far... I guess a hobbyist with a 40 CHF order (two forks) isn't their No.1 priority, if at all 😢

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On 2/23/2021 at 9:58 PM, nickelsilver said:

I'm unaware of a stand alone tool like the jacot for clocks*. There are lathe accessories that do the same thing that are suited to clock sizes up to a point.

 

A normal jacot will do from about 0.04mm (some, even some Steiner, start at 0.07mm) up to around 0.30mm, and have a special runner for tapered long pivots for 4th wheels. There's usually two runners for the normal pivots, one end with the beds, the other with lantern discs to work the pivot ends. Some will have an extra runner, with beds on both sides, for working on larger (center wheel) pivots. The runners are matched to the tool, no mixing around. 

 

But to sum up, a Jacot is for watches, most will be ok for pretty much any pivot size, with the possible exception of center wheels.

 

*there's a very excellent tool for clock pivots called a Rollimat. It uses a carbide wheel for finishing, and through a very clever design spins the wheel and bed around the pivot. This is basically how clock and watch pivots are finished industrially, except in those machines the wheel and disc spin while the bed is stationary. They're very expensive but for someone doing more than 2-3 clocks per week pay for themselves in short order.

 

Uh oh. Just saw the price of a Rollimat from Cousins.

After I converted the GBP figure, I get $3,901.68. And that is before freight and any customs charges that may exist on this end.

I can't imagine that I will be getting one of them shortly.

I did see where a guy had made a pivot polishing tool from half a hinge. May be something to look at.

May be.... Has to be something to look at.

Edited by Michael1962
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3 minutes ago, Michael1962 said:

Uh oh. Just saw the price of a Rollimat from Cousins.

After I converted the GBP figure, I get $3,901.68. And that is before freight and any customs charges that may exist on this end.

I can't imagine that I will be getting one of them shortly.

I did see where a guy had made a pivot polishing tool from hand a hinge. May be something to look at.

May be.... Has to be something to look at.

Haha, yes, they are very expensive. If you are patient you can find them secondhand for half or sometimes less, I got mine for 1500*. Mine's an early model, the later ones you can quickly change out the burnishing wheel- some people get rough and fine wheels, some even get degussit stone wheels for roughing in really bad pivots.

 

I would say it easily saves a half hour of time per clock. At a shop rate of 60/hour, it's paid for (new price) in 66 hours. That's about 10 clocks per month over a year, which any professional would do at the very least. And the finish is spectacular.

 

*at the time I didn't even work on clocks, I got it to work on one specific pin in one watch caliber that I was doing for a client, never regretted the purchase!

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37 minutes ago, Michael1962 said:

Professional in a shop maybe. New starter like myself? Highly unlikely at the moment.

I can't even find a dealer of them in Australia. Secondhand market? Who knows down here in Australia.

For sure. That would be money better spent on a lathe, which would serve well for pivot finishing and literally countless other things.

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Finally got word from Horia. It appears they tried to send me an invoice with instructions for of how to make the payment, but for some unknown reason the delivery failed. Anyway, their second attempt worked just fine. So, I've made the payment, in total $121 with shipping and banking fees for an order of two forks worth $44. Yikes! 😖 Anyway, a lot less expensive than trying to find another Steiner Jacot tool in the same condition. So, feeling pretty happy!

Again, thanks @nickelsilver!

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7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

That would be money better spent on a lathe, which would serve well for pivot finishing and literally countless other things.

A watchmaker's lathe is definitely a better universal tool then the tools specific for pivot polishing.

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53 minutes ago, Michael1962 said:

micro lathe?

Just so were all on the same page can you give us a picture or a link to your definition of a micro lathe.

Then yes usually a bigger lathe for clockwork not that you couldn't use a watchmaker's lathe for some stuff but usually for clocks stuff you need something bigger.

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