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Movement Holder Advice For Novice Please


tpt
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Hello knowledgeable folks.

I had a little search but couldn't find this, so sorry if it's been answered before.

I'm starting out on the BHI distance learning course and need to get myself tooled up.

As a novice I'm a little confused looking at movement holders on Cousins.uk.

Could someone please advise me as to what this relates to: "3¾ to 11 ligne" ??  inches I know. mm I know . what is a ligne?

I'm hoping to start out on a clock movement from a WWII Messerschmitt ME109 which is 55mm diameter. post-661-0-21204700-1424864999_thumb.jpg

 

What size holder will I need?

Oh and while I'm here... Is it a special type of wire that you can use around your head to hold an eye loupe to your eye? 

 

Many thanks

 

Tim

 

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Hi Tim, welcome to WRT.

 

Nice clock. Make sure that when you overhaul it you take loads of pics and post them here, it will be interesting to see what's inside.

 

A Ligne is an old (I believe French) pre-metric unit of measure that is still retained in the watch making world in reference to movement sizes.

 

1''' (ligne) = 2.2558mm or 0.0888''

 

So 3.75''' to 11''' is the same as 8.46mm to 24.8mm, or 1/3'' to 63/64''.

 

It's difficult to say what holder you will need for the clock until you open it up and see how big the movement is. What I would say though is don't get a cheap one, they are more bother than they are worth, I think that you will find most people will use Bergoen or equivalent if they are not using movement specific holders. Typically with Bergeon the 4039 will cover most wrist watch movements from ladies watches upwards, and the 4040 will do the larger wrist watches and most pocket watches. Having both covers most needs.

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Thank you Marc,
that's brilliant info and advice. I have my Grandfathers rather ancient wooden ring movement holders of all sizes. I might give it a try on one of these first as Bergeon tools are rather pricey. I know I'll probably get one sooner rather than later however! The clock is really special and cosmetically the same as the day it fell out of the sky. So I take my time on the movement only. Currently I've removed the balance as I could see the fixing point of the balance cock was bent and the hairspring a bit mangled. I'm hoping it can be rescued by someone with skills and talent. 
Can you enlighten me on the loupe wire too by any chance?

I've attached a pic of the movement... Does it have a part missing over the wheel by the cal number?

 

many thanks

Tim

post-661-0-65279000-1424871676_thumb.jpg

post-661-0-06684400-1424871717_thumb.jpg

Edited by tpt
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Hi Tim, welcome to the forum. That's a nice complicated movement to cut your teeth on, as Marc says, take lots of pictures as you will need them when it comes to assembly.

Regarding movement holders, I wouldn't recommend using a wooden one. I would suggest purchasing one of these:-

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/adjustable

As for your loupe, you could buy one of these :-

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/eyeglass-holders

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Thank you and thank you. 

hmm. yes it is a little complicated isn't it. a 15 minute repeater I believe. Perhaps I'll start on an old pocket watch made by my great great grandfather! Saphin of London.

I'll certainly be getting the eyeglass holder and the movement holder now then. 

I'm a film maker trying to become a watchmaker, so I'll try and film the entire disassembly of anything I touch while I'm learning. 

I was very nearly offered an apprentice position last month by a local and growing watch making company S. Michlmayr & Co. but I just couldn't have survived on the wage on offer. So I'll be a regular here for sure. There seems to be an enormous wealth of knowledge and experience here. 

cheers

 

Tim

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Hey Tim

 

I wouldn't even start on the watch from your great great grandfather.  Not saying this will happen but its very likely on your first few attempts you will break/loose something.

 

i would honestly go on buy a few pocket watches that work to the extend that "they go for a few moments when shook"  and work on these before tackling a keep sake or a extensive chronograph like the airpirt clock.  

 

This is my own opinion but experience is key for repairing of watches, even down to the ability to pick up a tiny screw and place it correctly without loosing it across the room.

 

It would be a shame if you ruined one of those two items on your first endeavours of watch repair..

 

Looking forward to watching you become hooked like most of us.

 

Good luck

 

Jonathan 

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thanks for the advice Geo and Jonathan,

I shall heed this and thank you again when something does ping across the room! 

I live near an auction house so plenty of opportunity to pick up old pocket watches.

What concerns me most about the Junghans aircraft clock is that it was obviously in my grandfathers possession for many years yet remained broken in a drawer. And I wonder if he deemed it beyond repair. I hope not.

I am already hooked. I've been obsessing for 2 years and finally decided to do something about it. 

 

BR

 

Tim

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thanks for the advice Geo and Jonathan,

I shall heed this and thank you again when something does ping across the room! 

I live near an auction house so plenty of opportunity to pick up old pocket watches.

What concerns me most about the Junghans aircraft clock is that it was obviously in my grandfathers possession for many years yet remained broken in a drawer. And I wonder if he deemed it beyond repair. I hope not.

I am already hooked. I've been obsessing for 2 years and finally decided to do something about it. 

 

BR

 

Tim

 

Well i think the first thing you will need is a new balance staff by looking at the pics which may need to be fabricated!. i would definitely put those on the side until you are confident because there is nothing worse than the feeling you get when you know you shouldn't but you jumped in anyway......and it doesn't pay off!   

 

also regardng the mat, i would suggest the one that is softer so when something drops on it , that it doesnt turn into a bouncy castle and pings your part out the window.  also go for a colour that will show up your part

Edited by jnash
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I wonder if he deemed it beyond repair. I hope not.

Even if he did think it couldn't be repaired, I'm sure that it can. You may have issues repairing or sourcing a hairspring, but one way or another you should be able to restore the watch. I would strongly suggest that you purchase a book on the repair of chronographs and digest it before you turn any screws in the movement. Some that look like screws are eccentrics for adjusting the mechanism, and if you bash on regardless it will be a much harder job to set up the chronograph during assembly.

Regarding working surface, I prefer a hard surface to work on. If you do required something softer, you could buy a case cushion for working on when required.

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I've just looked up some info on your clock and see where the 15 minute repeater confusion has arisen. Jungens did make a 15 minute "recorder", that referred to the chronograph maximum recording time. The one you have has a maximum recording time of 30 minutes as shown on the small dial.

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If you're on a budget (or you're as tight fisted as I am  :D ) then you can't go too far wrong than to buy a self healing cutting mat to use for you bench mat.

"The Works" discount stationers do an A4 size mat for £2.99 and an A2 size for £7.99. They are online if there isn't a branch near you.

I use the A4 size mat that they supply and although it's a little darker in colour than the "proper thing" I find it pretty much ideal.

 

That hairspring is a real mess but I believe that there isn't anything that simply can't be fixed; you just need to acquire the skills to do it. That may sound glib but it's a philosophy that I try to live up to and which may even make a watchmaker out of me.

 

As others have already said though, if this is your first attempt then hang fire a bit. I don't think that there are too many people on here who would disagree that the usual route for a self taught watch tinkerer involves a fair few failures to start with so it would be unwise to start with anything of value (sentimental or cash). Far better to cut your teeth on stuff that doesn't matter before applying what you learn to the important stuff.

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Welcome Tim,

 

I believe all the advise has already been given by the pros, so all I can say, as an almost beginner (I'm starting to promote myself as say: junior beginner? or barely one notch over completely beginner!), ok, I was saying, all I can say is check out the tools sections in the forum and you will see lots of information as what is best so you can select or at least have an idea what will work for you...as we are all unique as far as comfort level and preferences. Now that's the beginning since you need a workbench, light, good optics, oils, cleaning equipment, etc. in addition to many of the standard tools.

 

I would also recommend to watch all of Mark videos and if you have the time get an online "watchmaker" class like the TimeZone.com or the free Seiko class somewhere in the web (can't find the address now but you can search "7S26 service"). Seikos are good movement to start with, not too complicated and gives an idea of how everything should work.

 

Filming your work is an excellent idea and as a film maker I'd say you have all the tools and know how...Gosh, If it was me, I would even make an action movie out of it with plenty of pretty girls in lingerie dancing around. Maybe would turn out better than "Titanic"! ...."Watchmaker 007"! :) Just kidding now!

 

In any case, you are on your way for a great, and rewarding hobby. Hold on to the chronometer until you are more experienced and in the meantime practice, practice and practice...on lesser value movements until you work your skill up to the nice chronometer...and then practice a little bit more before tackling it just to make sure you are going to really restore/save that very nice heirloom!

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

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Hi Tim, 

Welcome to the forum. I agree with the posts so far to take this watch on as a first timer will be a challenge. I would first practice on a few watches purchased from Bay i.e. job lots that can be picked up at very reasonable prices. Simple things like picking up parts with tweezers without them flying can be puzzling to start with, but better with a non valuable watch that a good watch.

PS I have a wood movement holder but never use it, just to big & awkward.

Edited by clockboy
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Filming your work is an excellent idea and as a film maker I'd say you have all the tools and know how...Gosh, If it was me, I would even make an action movie out of it with plenty of pretty girls in lingerie dancing around. Maybe would turn out better than "Titanic"! ...."Watchmaker 007"! :) Just kidding now!

 

Could end up as  'Mr. Bean and the mangled hairspring"

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Welcome to the forum Tim. As Bob suggested a Seiko 7S26 (loads on fleabay) is an excellent starting point. As this is probably the most common movement on the planet there are plenty of parts & non runners out there, along with walk throughs here and elsewhere. Best keep the good stuff on the back burner until you get the hang of things, particularly the 109 clock as I suspect it's worth a few bob.

 

Nice set of wrenches by the way.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello Tim,

It is often the case that people start tinkering with watches to fix a cherished heirloom. It happened to me and led me to Mark's vids and then to this forum. All I can add is that I get a lot out of the forum and not the least is the camaraderie. Welcome.

Cheers, Vic

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Thanks very much Vic.

Cousins UK are doing very well out of me right now! 

I have my first ETA automatic in bits and am constructing a cleaning device possibly never before seen in the world of watch repairs. Soon as that's done I have a Seiko ready to dismantle. 

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