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Sellita SW 220-1 keyless works, don't


BrianB

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I fear this is going to be a repeat of the "Sellita SW-200-1 Stem SNAFU" thread but I wanted to start my own so as not to highjack firebynight's thread.

I think the universe likes to arrange these little moments just to give me a reality check when I start feeling like I've learned something.

I'm building a watch using a dial, case, hands, movement, etc. that I picked out. Everything has been going together well and I was really happy with the result thus far. The movement is a Sellita SW 220-1 top grade (not that the grade matters here - just had to point out that if I'm going to screw up a movement it might as well be a top grade, right?).

Anyway, I had the whole thing together and was down to the very last step which was to trim the stem to the right length so I could fit the screw-down crown. Who would have thought that this is where it would go off the rails?

I've had problems removing and replacing stems in the past in other movements but with a little fiddling of the stem they always seem to go back together and be happy and function again. I just recently learned the "trick" (I guess it's not a trick, it's just proper procedure) of using a screwdriver blade to push the stem release button as the blade is wider than the button and will pass through the slot, but not "over-press" but button. I figured using this technique my stem-removal issues were behind me.

Before I describe the problem I'd like to recite what I think is the correct technique to r/r the stem so that you all can correct me if I've got it wrong.

Remove:

  1. Pull the stem to the hacked/time-setting position.
  2. Use a screwdriver blade that will fit in the slot, and is wider than the button, to press the button while gently pulling on the crown.
  3. When the button gets to the disengagement point the crown comes out easily.

Replace:

  1. Use your screwdriver blade to push the button in again.
  2. Slip the stem in, rotating as necessary to align the square end with the slot in the sliding clutch.
  3. Release the button and finish inserting the stem until it clicks.

So first, thanks in advance for correcting any of that which may be wrong.

Now, honestly I'm not sure what I did to cause the issue. I think perhaps it is possible that I didn't pull the crown to the hacked/time-setting position first. Maybe I didn't have the button pushed well when I went to put the crown back in. I'm not sure. Whatever I did the issue is that I can push the button and put the stem back in, and when I do the stem secures in place, but you can't push it or pull it. The watch is running and you can't pull the stem to the date change or hacked/time-setting position. If you push the button you can take the stem back out again.

Reading through the "Sellita SW-200-1 Stem SNAFU" thread it seems that its likely that something in the keyless works is not where it should be relative to something else. The most straightforward way to remedy this is to pull the hands and remove the dial, then remove the day wheel, date wheel, jumper retainer, jumper, and minute bridge, to access the keyless works and reset everything in proper orientation (and hope nothing got bent in my pushing and pulling on the stem when I couldn't believe it wouldn't move).

I've done all of the above on an ETA 2824 clone (which of course doesn't have the day wheel, but is otherwise the same), so I feel competent to do that job, but man I really don't want to if it can be avoided.

Given the extra detail of the stem going in and locking in place but not being able to move, is there any hope that this is something that can be reset through the aperture on the edge where you can see the keyless works a bit? Looking through that opening, and comparing what I see to what I see on another SW 220-1 in the various positions, the part of the keyless I can see looks to be in the winding position, but the watch can't be wound - something isn't in engagement and you can feel what is probably the teeth on the sliding clutch just barely touching the teeth on the winding pinion.

Anyway, this got way too long. If the path forward is to just pull the hands and dial and everything else and redo the keyless then that's what I'll do. There was mention of a shortcut video in the other thread but unless I missed it I don't think the link to it got posted.

Thanks in advance for the help. I know we're all new once, but this really makes me feel stupid.

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Well, no guts no glory. I felt stupid for being aggravated with the situation rather than seeing it as an opportunity to improve my knowledge and skills.

I went ahead and jumped into the fix today. Wasn't really that bad at all. I think it took maybe an hour or two. I didn't really pay attention to the time.

Pulling the hands was interesting because I couldn't put the watch in "time set" mode, nor could I hack the movement. I considered waiting until the watch advanced to a time more conducive to removing the hands easily and decided the heck with it - this is a good chance to practice removing hands with levers under less-than-ideal conditions.

After the hands were off I removed the dial and then put the movement in a movement-specific holder for the ETA 2824/36 / SW 200/220. I mention this only because in HSL's excellent walk through to fix this issue (in another thread) he removed the rotor to ensure the movement could be held in a movement holder without interference from the rotor. This was not necessary with the movement-specific holder. 

2020-09-13 01.38.13-1.jpg

Speaking of HSL and his walk-through, my thanks to him for it. I'd taken the date jumper, jumper retainer, date wheel, and minute bridge off of a 2824 before, but the only keyless works I've ever messed with was the 6498 that I did in Mark's classes. HSL's pictures were a great help.

I should have taken pictures of what was messed up with my keyless, but I didn't. Suffice it to say things were not as they should be. I examined each part and found that nothing appeared to be bent or out of sorts.

Then I followed HSL's guide to remove the various keyless works components and reinstall them in the proper arrangement, with the caveat that some of the parts are a little different in the SW 220-1 than the SW 200-1 (owing to the presence of a day wheel in addition to the date wheel.

Reassembly of the remainder was pretty straightforward and went fine though I did the assembly in a slightly different order, using the method I was used to from playing with the 2824 previously. I put the minute bridge on first, then the date wheel, then the date jumper (which is also the day jumper on the 220) and the date jumper maintainer. Then I had to reinstall the day wheel and it's circlip.

The day wheel was slightly tricky just because I've never put one on before, but its jumper works pretty much the same as the date wheel jumper - except you can't see it and you have to catch and compress it by feel.

So now it's all back together and seems happy. All of the functions seem to work fine (winding, rapid day and date advance, and time setting). Having it all back together I lament that I didn't bother to re-lubricate the various parts.

Also, at one point during the reassembly the setting wheel became dislodged - jumping completely out of the movement. I examined it at the time but apparently not closely enough as I concluded there was no difference between the two sides of it. Looking at the technical documentation for the movement I now see that there is indeed a right and a wrong orientation. Damn.

I'm not tearing it back down to find out at this point. Especially since I still have to finish trimming the stem to the right length which means several more removals and re-insertions and the chance that I screw the keyless works up again. If that happens I'll examine the setting wheel and make sure it's right side up, and I'll also lube anything that seems like it needs it.

Anyway, thanks to HSL and this fantastic community for being such a great, supportive resource.

Edited by BrianB
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While I'm up late and posting, I'd like to re-post a question I had buried in my OP in this topic. To try to avoid making this mistake again, can someone confirm that this is the correct removal and reinstallation procedure for the stem (or correct me if it's not):

Remove:

  1. Pull the stem to the hacked/time-setting position.
  2. Use a screwdriver blade that will fit in the slot, and is wider than the button, to press the button while gently pulling on the crown.
  3. When the button gets to the disengagement point the crown comes out easily.

Replace:

  1. Use your screwdriver blade to push the button in again.
  2. Slip the stem in, rotating as necessary to align the square end with the slot in the sliding clutch.
  3. Release the button and finish inserting the stem until it clicks.

On the Sellita SW 220-1 I have found that the Bergeon 1.20mm (red) scredriver fits the width of the slot perfectly. Previously (when I messed it up) I had used the 1.00mm (black) screwdriver which is narrower than the slot and may have let me tilt the screwdriver to the side and depress the button further than I should have. Either that or I failed to pull the stem to the time-setting position before removing.

Anyway, thanks in advance for verifying the procedure outlined above!

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1.00 mm is wide enough hence wont let you push the button further in as you suspect you might have.

Try to get the set lever pin in set position again and proceed with stem insertion.

You can reach the set liver pin through the stem hole by a needle.

Good luck

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On 9/13/2020 at 3:04 AM, BrianB said:

While I'm up late and posting, I'd like to re-post a question I had buried in my OP in this topic. To try to avoid making this mistake again, can someone confirm that this is the correct removal and reinstallation procedure for the stem (or correct me if it's not):

Remove:

  1. Pull the stem to the hacked/time-setting position.
  2. Use a screwdriver blade that will fit in the slot, and is wider than the button, to press the button while gently pulling on the crown.
  3. When the button gets to the disengagement point the crown comes out easily.

Replace:

  1. Use your screwdriver blade to push the button in again.
  2. Slip the stem in, rotating as necessary to align the square end with the slot in the sliding clutch.
  3. Release the button and finish inserting the stem until it clicks.

On the Sellita SW 220-1 I have found that the Bergeon 1.20mm (red) scredriver fits the width of the slot perfectly. Previously (when I messed it up) I had used the 1.00mm (black) screwdriver which is narrower than the slot and may have let me tilt the screwdriver to the side and depress the button further than I should have. Either that or I failed to pull the stem to the time-setting position before removing.

Anyway, thanks in advance for verifying the procedure outlined above!

I'm obviously no expert, but I agree that the 1.2mm is a safer bet than the 1mm. That definitely won't allow you to push further than designed.

Let's see a photo of the finished project!

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On 9/15/2020 at 8:05 PM, firebynight said:

I'm obviously no expert, but I agree that the 1.2mm is a safer bet than the 1mm. That definitely won't allow you to push further than designed.

Let's see a photo of the finished project!

Well, I've removed and reinstalled the stem several times now without messing it up, so whatever I'm doing must be OK. Prior to this incident I've never messed one up to the point of requiring me to redo the keyless works, but at least now I've done it once so if I had to do it again I know it's not the end of the world.

Here's the way the watch sits today - well, the picture was actually taken yesterday. :)

BW0-1_IMG_20200916_091238_3_RT_crop_resize.png

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1 hour ago, BrianB said:

Well, I've removed and reinstalled the stem several times now without messing it up, so whatever I'm doing must be OK. Prior to this incident I've never messed one up to the point of requiring me to redo the keyless works, but at least now I've done it once so if I had to do it again I know it's not the end of the world.

Here's the way the watch sits today - well, the picture was actually taken yesterday. :)

BW0-1_IMG_20200916_091238_3_RT_crop_resize.png

That's really reassuring to hear! Thanks for the update. I haven't had to get back into another SW-200-1 yet and I'm partly dreading and partly looking forward to the next time! 

So, you're sticking with a 1.2mm?

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2 hours ago, firebynight said:

So, you're sticking with a 1.2mm?

For these SW220's the 1.2mm seems perfect. As a general rule my plan is to always use the widest screwdriver that will fit the slot. This should make it impossible to push the pin too far.

As far as technique goes, hopefully I've improved my "feel" a bit. Removing and replacing the stem is a lot easier with the movement out of the case, but with it in this particular case, which has a screw down crown and an o-ring in the crown tube that provides some resistance when trying to insert it, it really messes up the feel.

I'm finding that upon reinsertion I push the stem in until I can feel it touch inside, then depress the button, letting the stem move in, then it seems like the stem has to get pushed in pretty far before it catches the setting lever thereby becoming captive (and not just pull back out if pulled on).

Edited by BrianB
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1 hour ago, eccentric59 said:

I'll bet dollars to donuts that the yoke jumped the sliding clutch. It's very easy to do with the SW200/ETA2824 movements. Because of the design of these movements, removing the stem requires a very light touch.

I should have taken a picture of it once I got the minute bridge off, but I didn't. I don't know why I didn't. Maybe I didn't have the microscope set up.

I seem to recall that the yoke was still in the sliding clutch groove, but nearly nothing else was as it should be. I think I was just anxious to get it back together so I immediately set about moving everything into the proper relationships and put the covers back on (so to speak).

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Interesting. When you press the release button that pushes the setting lever down so the stem can be removed, and if the keyless works wasn't in the second position, the sliding clutch has a bit too much wiggle room. Pushing the stem back in, even carefully often times pushes it past the yoke which then gets trapped between the winding pinion and the clutch. 

Of course, a bit too much pressure in the wrong spot could also pop the spring off the setting lever or yoke.

IMG_9607[1].jpg

Edited by eccentric59
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31 minutes ago, eccentric59 said:

Interesting. When you press the release button that pushes the setting lever down so the stem can be removed, and if the keyless works wasn't in the second position, the sliding clutch has a bit too much wiggle room. Pushing the stem back in, even carefully often times pushes it past the yoke which then gets trapped between the winding pinion and the clutch. 

Of course, a bit too much pressure in the wrong spot could also pop the spring off the setting lever or yoke.

The setting lever was definitely disengaged from the setting lever jumper. Once I could see the relationships of the parts I think I just said "what a flippin' mess" and started fixing it. I really wish I had stuck it under the microscope and taken a picture first.

That said, your description of the sliding clutch being disengaged from the yoke and the yoke being trapped between the winding pinion and the clutch definitely sounds like how the watch felt when trying to manipulate the stem and/or turn the crown during the malfunction.

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