Omega cal. 268 impulse jewel friction fitted or fixed with shellac?

[VWatchie]

I don’t think this picture is of much use for my question, but I decided to include it anyway, just in case.

I’m servicing the above Omega cal. 268 on behalf of a friend of mine, and up until just recently I was under the impression that the impulse jewel, without exception, of all movements where fixed to the roller with shellac. That is, until I read a post by @nickelsilver somewhere who I believe mentioned that most(?) impulse jewels are friction fitted!?

Anyway, I can’t determine if the impulse jewel of this Omega 268 is friction fitted or fixed with shellac. My eyeglass just isn’t strong enough to determine for sure if there’s any shellac present or not, but with the 4.5X magnification I have I can’t discern any shellac. Also, I can’t figure out how I could safely take a look at the impulse jewel it in my 40X stereo microscope (hmm… perhaps just mount the balance back to the main plate!?) I don’t know if it’s of any importance but this balance has a Breguet hairspring, my first, which is pretty exciting and I don’t want to take any risks handling the balance trying to get a better view of the impulse jewel.

The reason I’m asking is that I’m planning to do a 1-minute final rinse in IPA when cleaning this Omega in my watch cleaning machine (minus the pallets). Having done so with a pallet from a scrap movement the shellac softened up to the extent that it didn’t take much force at all to remove the pallet stones with tweezers. And yes, that was after just 60 seconds in IPA and then the basket immediately moved to the pre-heated drying chamber. I simply don’t want this to happen to this Omega impulse jewel.

So, if anyone knows or can make a qualified guess if the impulse jewel is friction fitted or fixed with shellac please let me know!
 

[nickelsilver]

You're 1000% ok with a one minute rinse in IPA. I do watches from early 20th century with a longer alcohol rinse and do check the roller jewel- it's maybe 1 in 200 that need a reshellac. More modern watches the jewel was a press fit, you are fine.

[JohnR725]

46 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

You're 1000% ok with a one minute rinse in IPA

I assume I PA equals isopropyl alcohol? What's interesting is with our cleaning machine at work the last rinse is isopropyl alcohol industrial-strength the Cayman a big metal can. I'm pretty sure it's in the last rinse for longer than a minute and I'm reasonably sure it has ultrasonic. If I remember how to get a picture of the canned so we can make sure it really is isopropyl alcohol that usually it's not a problem for shellac

I was always taught with roller jewels especially since I spend a lot of time working on American pocket watches that when they come out of the cleaning machine you grab them and see if they wiggle. American pocket watches have a misfortune of interestingly weird repair histories and sometimes the shellac isn't shellac and a lot of times the roller jewel is loose.

On a modern watches they do appear to be pressed in. But if you're not sure where gently grabbed the jewel and see if it's loose it's in their nice and tight your fine.

[nickelsilver]

I always check the roller jewel for tightness, as I rinse in isopropyl alcohol (ipa, not the beer,!). I see an American watch once every 18 months or so, usually massacred with super glue, eccentric bankings wonky, hairspring collet split and glued etc.

[Tudor]

Quick question while we’re on the subject:

is the one-dip safe for shellac? My experience is that the flakes are melted In alcohol to make a liquid and allowed to dry for finishing. Would the trichlorethelene attack the shellac? I’m about to get into some pocket watches and don’t want to open that can of worms. 
 

I have other solvents at my disposal but just got the one dip in for hairspring washing. 

[VWatchie]

15 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

You're 1000% ok with a one minute rinse in IPA. I do watches from early 20th century with a longer alcohol rinse and do check the roller jewel- it's maybe 1 in 200 that need a reshellac. More modern watches the jewel was a press fit, you are fine.

I really wish that was my experience as well but for some unknown reason it is not. Here's a picture of the label of the IPA that I use:

It's only recently that I've been using a watch cleaning machine (traditional ELMA with three glass jars, a heating chamber, and a spinning basket) and it has been working pretty well. For the final rinse I've been using Suprol Pro, but it's terribly expensive and it smells like "death", has a narcotic effect warning, and drives my wife nuts even if she only gets a small whiff of it. Honestly, I understand her!

So, I decided to replace the Suprol Pro with IPA, which is comparatively inexpensive, doesn't smell much, and makes the parts even cleaner, I believe. I use Elma Red 9:1 in the first jar and deionized water in the second jar. Now, I have a Vostok Amphibian that is one of my favourite watches and it's one of the first I ever serviced some years ago. However, it didn’t run very well after the first service so I decided to give it another overhaul, this time with quite a bit more experience and knowledge under my belt. Anyway, before cleaning the parts in my cleaning machine using IPA in the final rinse, I decided to test how long it would take before the integrity of the shellac would start to deteriorate when rinsed in IPA.

So, I placed a Vostok scrap pallets in a small jar containing my IPA, gently agitated the jar for exactly 60 seconds, removed the pallets, blew it dry and inspected it under my stereo microscope while gently poking the thinner parts of the shellac with the tip of my Dumont No.4. At this point the shellac felt as solid as it had done before soaking it in IPA. After this I threw the pallets back into the IPA for another 60 seconds and blew it dry. This time around the shellac still felt solid but I had a slight feeling that the thinner sections of shellac perhaps felt a tad bit softer (or it was in my imagination). However, the third time around (after another 60 seconds) the shellac definitely started to feel soft. I can’t remember exactly, but after having repeated this procedure for about 6 to 8 times (so a total time of about 6 to 8 minutes) I could quite easily remove the pallet stones by just gently pulling them away from the fork.

With my newfound empiric knowledge, I decided it should be safe to rinse all movement parts, including the pallets, of my favourite Vostok watch in IPA for exactly one minute using my watch cleaning machine. Said and done, after 60 seconds I moved the basket to the heating chamber and after about 10 to 15 minutes of drying I removed the basket to let it cool down. However, when inspecting the shellac on the pallets it had deteriorated to the point that I could with some small force remove the pallet stones. Dang! (A pallet warmer, shellac, and an alcohol lamp is on its way and it shall be very interesting )

Now, I strongly suspect that it was the effect of the IPA in combination with the mechanical wear produced by the quickly spinning basket. Another possibility that I’ve been considering could be that the heating chamber of my watch cleaning machine isn’t warm enough, making the IPA linger on for too long. After all, it’s a well-used 70-year-old machine. Or, that the 10 to 15 minutes in the heating chamber is too long, making the shellac soften by too much heat and becoming displaced by the centrifugal force of the basket spinning around (lowest speed though).

I’d love to use IPA in the final rinse. It would be so very practical, but with these bad experiences of mine I simply don’t know what to do or think.

So, any further advice or ideas?
 

[VWatchie]

12 hours ago, Tudor said:

is the one-dip safe for shellac

I'm not sure what one-dip you're referring to, but if it is Bergeon's one-dip it has now been replaced with something they call "B-Dip", and it's advertised as perfectly safe for jewels fixed with shellac.

[Tudor]

Not Bergeon brand one-dip. Another manufacturer (maybe the same one?) purchased from Star Time last week. I checked the label and it contains trichlorethylene. We used to use that to degrease aircraft parts (other than titanium) and there was nothing better. But since it kills everything in a ten mile radius they banned it. (wuuuses)

I was surprised to see that on the label, but that's what it is. I don't know the active ingredient in the Bergeon brand stuff. Chlorinated solvents such as this are excellent for removing solder flux from circuit boards, and that is pine pitch (tree sap) same as shellac (sap from a different tree). So that's why I was asking. I guess I could give it a try but most of the junkers I have are much newer and probably don't use shellac adhesive. I am sure the old pocket watches do use shellac...

[JohnR725]

Not sure if it has a trademark but one dip found that the link below. Classic hairspring rinse whose formula has changed with time. The current stuff has an incredibly horrible smell but it really is good at rinsing off things.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Dip-Watch-Parts-Cleaner-Rinse-for-Hairspring-Jewels-Pallet-Made-in-USA-/183912878769

[Rafael]

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I really wish that was my experience as well but for some unknown reason it is not. Here's a picture of the label of the IPA that I use:

It's only recently that I've been using a watch cleaning machine (traditional ELMA with three glass jars, a heating chamber, and a spinning basket) and it has been working pretty well. For the final rinse I've been using Suprol Pro, but it's terribly expensive and it smells like "death", has a narcotic effect warning, and drives my wife nuts even if she only gets a small whiff of it. Honestly, I understand her!

So, I decided to replace the Suprol Pro with IPA, which is comparatively inexpensive, doesn't smell much, and makes the parts even cleaner, I believe. I use Elma Red 9:1 in the first jar and deionized water in the second jar. Now, I have a Vostok Amphibian that is one of my favourite watches and it's one of the first I ever serviced some years ago. However, it didn’t run very well after the first service so I decided to give it another overhaul, this time with quite a bit more experience and knowledge under my belt. Anyway, before cleaning the parts in my cleaning machine using IPA in the final rinse, I decided to test how long it would take before the integrity of the shellac would start to deteriorate when rinsed in IPA.

So, I placed a Vostok scrap pallets in a small jar containing my IPA, gently agitated the jar for exactly 60 seconds, removed the pallets, blew it dry and inspected it under my stereo microscope while gently poking the thinner parts of the shellac with the tip of my Dumont No.4. At this point the shellac felt as solid as it had done before soaking it in IPA. After this I threw the pallets back into the IPA for another 60 seconds and blew it dry. This time around the shellac still felt solid but I had a slight feeling that the thinner sections of shellac perhaps felt a tad bit softer (or it was in my imagination). However, the third time around (after another 60 seconds) the shellac definitely started to feel soft. I can’t remember exactly, but after having repeated this procedure for about 6 to 8 times (so a total time of about 6 to 8 minutes) I could quite easily remove the pallet stones by just gently pulling them away from the fork.

With my newfound empiric knowledge, I decided it should be safe to rinse all movement parts, including the pallets, of my favourite Vostok watch in IPA for exactly one minute using my watch cleaning machine. Said and done, after 60 seconds I moved the basket to the heating chamber and after about 10 to 15 minutes of drying I removed the basket to let it cool down. However, when inspecting the shellac on the pallets it had deteriorated to the point that I could with some small force remove the pallet stones. Dang! (A pallet warmer, shellac, and an alcohol lamp is on its way and it shall be very interesting )

Now, I strongly suspect that it was the effect of the IPA in combination with the mechanical wear produced by the quickly spinning basket. Another possibility that I’ve been considering could be that the heating chamber of my watch cleaning machine isn’t warm enough, making the IPA linger on for too long. After all, it’s a well-used 70-year-old machine. Or, that the 10 to 15 minutes in the heating chamber is too long, making the shellac soften by too much heat and becoming displaced by the centrifugal force of the basket spinning around (lowest speed though).

I’d love to use IPA in the final rinse. It would be so very practical, but with these bad experiences of mine I simply don’t know what to do or think.

So, any further advice or ideas?
 

So just rinse the pallet fork and balance assembly separately with naphtha. I don't see what the big deal is

[rodabod]

Naphtha is not a water solvent, so will not work for that purpose. 
 

Heat also softens shellac, so I would bear that in mind. Also, you might burn your house down. 
 

I’d maybe just do a second water rinse and a longer heat/dry. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by rodabod

[Rafael]

Maybe should have wrote "clean" instead of rinse to make it more clear.

[rodabod]

Ah, I get you. Good call. 

[Tudor]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Not sure if it has a trademark but one dip found that the link below. Classic hairspring rinse whose formula has changed with time. The current stuff has an incredibly horrible smell but it really is good at rinsing off things.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Dip-Watch-Parts-Cleaner-Rinse-for-Hairspring-Jewels-Pallet-Made-in-USA-/183912878769

This is exactly what I have. I recognize the brand labeling. I have the smaller 2-Oz bottle.  It’s tricolor. It will certainly clean the parts and destroy any trace of oil. Yes, it smells bad but not as bad as some Other things. 

[nickelsilver]

17 hours ago, Tudor said:

 

I was surprised to see that on the label, but that's what it is. I don't know the active ingredient in the Bergeon brand stuff. Chlorinated solvents such as this are excellent for removing solder flux from circuit boards, and that is pine pitch (tree sap) same as shellac (sap from a different tree). So that's why I was asking. I guess I could give it a try but most of the junkers I have are much newer and probably don't use shellac adhesive. I am sure the old pocket watches do use shellac...

A little correction- shellac is the secretion of the lac bug, after it eats sap.

[Tudor]

Even better!