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Another stupid newbie question - Moebius 941 vs. 9415


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This feels like it's going to be a stupid question, but it's bugging me so I have to ask.

In general it seems like Moebius 941 and 9415 are treated interchangeably - both being suitable for lubricating the pallet stones / escape wheel teeth.

For example, here is the section from the ETA 2836 service sheeting specifying the lubricant to be used for that purpose:

2038276698_ETA2836Palletlube.png.png.fce9586f7b63bc34a2dba0ffe1626374.png

But what is confusing to me is that other than the numbers and the color Moebius 941 and 9415 don't seem very similar. Moebius 941 is listed as an oil and Moebius 9415 is listed as a grease. Though their viscosity numbers are similar, looking at the packaging they come in gives the definite impression that 941 is more of a liquid. 

The 941 settles to the bottom of the vial nicely, exhibiting a meniscus on top as one would expect from a liquid. The 9415 on the other hand demonstrates a non-symmetrical air pocket suggesting a much thicker substance that hold form like a grease would be expected to.

908322924_Moebius941vs9415.png.png.1f63f0b7e2e9051b312c3684699e6bf0.png

I just don't understand how these two substances could be interchangeable - especially on something as sensitive to energy loss as an escapement.

If they are indeed interchangeable it would seem that the 941 would be preferable on something like pallet stones as I'd think it would be less likely to grab and hold the escape wheel tooth, however briefly, robbing energy.

Thanks in advance for entertaining my ignorance and sharing your collective wisdom.

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Depending upon the Age of the tech sheet you will find Variations especially for lubrication. I don't have a timeline but it goes in this order 9010 originally although the earlier tech sheets of other recommendations. then 941 comes out. Later 9415 a grease originally for higher frequency watches. Then the tech sheets were either or and it didn't have anything to do with frequency. Finally 9415 is the choice for everything. Okay to be technical it's not for everything there are some other specialty lubrication's but for this discussion it's 9415. I've attached a newer PDF of your watch and it's 9415. Also first link you can see the oil listed and that just says it's for escapement's. That on the grease section you'll find the 9415.

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&ETA_2836

 

 

 

 

 

ETA CT_2836-2_FDE_481924_17-1 2018.pdf

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So as stated before, 9415 will go from a thick grease to an oil with the introduction of friction. Once the friction is removed it goes back to a grease. It's pretty wild. As I understand it, you should be able to use 9415 without epilame, which is a product you use to coat the spots where you'll add oil to keep it in place. However with the 941 you'll definitely want to use epilame as that will go everywhere with out it. Some can correct me if I am incorrect in this logic.

 

I started with the 941 but ended up getting the 9415. I'd say just pay the extra for the 9415 the first time.

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1 hour ago, saswatch88 said:

The 9415 liquifies with friction

Unfortunately there is a problem with 9415? I'm attaching a PDF starting on page 13 it covers lubrication of the escapement. notice where they're putting super tiny quantities on? This is because if you get carried away with the quantity which normally wouldn't be an issue if this was an oil you will lose amplitude. This is because on impact the grease becomes a fluid it's very slippery and outstanding but if it's heavy the edges of the escape wheel are not an impact and there literally tearing through the grease.

Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins uk.pdf

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It's unfortunate that cousins doesn't have the complete set as there's considerably more than this. Then finding these out in the wild a really hard because if you look at the corner of each page whoever downloaded it off of the Omega site gets their watermark in each corner. Which is why anyone with Omega account isn't going to share but cousins for a while did get some of the stuff

so if you Go to cousins websites and you search for working you would end up at the link I have below. As I said it's not the complete set but some interesting technical information

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=Working

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6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately there is a problem with 9415? I'm attaching a PDF starting on page 13 it covers lubrication of the escapement. notice where they're putting super tiny quantities on? This is because if you get carried away with the quantity which normally wouldn't be an issue if this was an oil you will lose amplitude. This is because on impact the grease becomes a fluid it's very slippery and outstanding but if it's heavy the edges of the escape wheel are not an impact and there literally tearing through the grease.

That is kind of what I was driving at - I don't care how slippery it is, or how much it changes thickness under friction, it's grease. It's glommy. Now granted, too much of any lubricant is bad. But it seems to me that the difference between "enough grease" and "too much grease" would be exceedingly minuscule on something like an escapement.

When I used 9415 on the exit pallet stone when reassembling the 6498 in Mark's classes, I suspect I used too much. I'm going to remove the escape wheel and pallet fork and give them a good cleaning and re-lubricate using the guidance in that document.

Thanks for posting it!

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19 hours ago, jdm said:

9415 is a newer product with thixotropic properties. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy

Search WRT for this word to be lead to the various discussions one the subject.

When I was making the decision to buy the 941 or the 9415, without realizing one was an oil and one was a grease, my thought process was "well, it would make sense that the 9415 would be newer than the 941, just judging by the numbers - as you wouldn't remove a digit for a newer product".

So I bought the 9415.

Now I think I'll go ahead and get some 941 just so I have options.

Thanks for the info!

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5 hours ago, BrianB said:

Now I think I'll go ahead and get some 941 just so I have options.

As mentioned above 9415 is better for all uses. Having it already, getting 941 would be wasted money and would not produce the much sought higher amplitude.

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16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately there is a problem with 9415? I'm attaching a PDF starting on page 13 it covers lubrication of the escapement. notice where they're putting super tiny quantities on? This is because if you get carried away with the quantity which normally wouldn't be an issue if this was an oil you will lose amplitude. This is because on impact the grease becomes a fluid it's very slippery and outstanding but if it's heavy the edges of the escape wheel are not an impact and there literally tearing through the grease.

Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins uk.pdf 1.28 MB · 11 downloads

I find that oil the escape wheel teeth when lurbricating with 9415 is easier to control the amount of grease.

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