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Omega 30T2: Safety pin too long?


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1 hour ago, gaber said:

One thing that is clear is that the overcoil is not centered between the regulator pins, but is resting against one.

so this is a problem you should be resting on one of the pins. With an over coil hairspring the regulator pins are supposed to be as tight as possible but still allow the Springs slide. So in other words if you look in you really shouldn't feel the tell if it's resting on either pin it should be between the pins I eat but still allow it to slide you don't what it punching up when you move the regulator that's very bad.

Flash hairspring is need I don't know what they call up breathing room and do you do have to have a little bit again.

1 hour ago, gaber said:

I'm not sure I follow this last comment.  What do you mean by the "balance arms" being squeezed?

bad wording on my part.Look at your balance wheel look at the rim not the arms is supposed to have a perfect circle but you have a bimetallic balance wheel which with temperature the arms themselves will move in and out or basically the outer circle will move in and out a little bit. If somebody squeezes the balance wheel which is very easy to do the arms will move in just a hair and that will screw up your timekeeping.

An example of that is I had a pocket watch once that everything looked perfect but it was way too fast and the arms look like they were in the right place but I just moved both of them out just almost basically not even noticeable and the watch was exactly on time it was only because the arms had been squeezed.

 

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10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

If somebody squeezes the balance wheel which is very easy to do the arms will move in just a hair and that will screw up your timekeeping.

Let me try to illustrate this to see if I get it right.  So someone squeezes too hard where the arrows are:

PXL_20220928_160720478.thumb.jpg.2345a683b67b6038c52ee0092b5ae0f5.jpg

this can deform the circle, causing the gap (dashed lines) to close (a tiny bit) and overall deforming the circle to decrease it's radius, and speed up it's oscillation.  Have I got it right?

But trying to correct this, I wanted to confirm the basic idea that the balance has an intrinsically higher rate, so I used a technique that I observed on a youtube video of oscillating the balance by hand on glass surface.  Here is a video I made:

What I did was count the beats.  I timed sets (of 40 and 50) to get a rate, and calculated the error with respect to the correct rate of a 30T2 movement (18000 half oscillations per hr = 9000 full oscillations per hour = 2.5 Hz).  Little more math and I came up with numbers between +200 and +270 seconds per day.

Do you buy this?  Can one get a reasonable estimate with this technique?  If this is right, then I think the idea of the balance wheel getting squeezed seems the most plausible theory so far.

For your reference, here is the original video I found, showing this technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye6i14NaWKI

 

Cheers

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1 hour ago, gaber said:

Let me try to illustrate this to see if I get it right.  So someone squeezes too hard where the arrows are:

PXL_20220928_160720478.thumb.jpg.2345a683b67b6038c52ee0092b5ae0f5.jpg

this can deform the circle, causing the gap (dashed lines) to close (a tiny bit) and overall deforming the circle to decrease it's radius, and speed up it's oscillation.  Have I got it right?

But trying to correct this, I wanted to confirm the basic idea that the balance has an intrinsically higher rate, so I used a technique that I observed on a youtube video of oscillating the balance by hand on glass surface.  Here is a video I made:

What I did was count the beats.  I timed sets (of 40 and 50) to get a rate, and calculated the error with respect to the correct rate of a 30T2 movement (18000 half oscillations per hr = 9000 full oscillations per hour = 2.5 Hz).  Little more math and I came up with numbers between +200 and +270 seconds per day.

Do you buy this?  Can one get a reasonable estimate with this technique?  If this is right, then I think the idea of the balance wheel getting squeezed seems the most plausible theory so far.

For your reference, here is the original video I found, showing this technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye6i14NaWKI

 

Cheers

Your time accuracy depends where you are holding the hairspring while vibrating. This point would be the same as the timing regulation point between the regulation arm pins. As you say an estimate for beat per hour and close enough to regulate once mounted on balance cock and installed in tge movement. Not quite sure how the balance wheel shape would effect this as the mass of it hasn't changed. Noticing you are holding at the stud so if your calculations are accurate it is running way too fast. Holding at this point it should be running - seconds per day.

48 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Your time accuracy depends where you are holding the hairspring while vibrating. This point would be the same as the timing regulation point between the regulation arm pins. As you say an estimate for beat per hour and close enough to regulate once mounted on balance cock and installed in tge movement. Not quite sure how the balance wheel shape would effect this as the mass of it hasn't changed.

Lol i think i will answer my own question. The deformation would cause a smaller wheel diameter and also a poise error. Forgot that both mass and size plays a roll in timing and the torque required to turn. Like an athlete throwing the hammer, with a heavier hammer and a longer handle the athlete needs to generate more power. So the deformed balance wheel has less diameter requiring less force to move it at the same speed. The hairspring hasn't changed so the torque is the same on a smaller diameter wheel meaning a faster wheel. I think that explains it well enough 🤔.

1 hour ago, gaber said:

How does one correct this?  How do you "unsqueeze" in a controlled manner?

 feeler gauges  in the wheel's opening ?

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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37 minutes ago, gaber said:

How does one correct this?  How do you "unsqueeze" in a controlled manner?

first step with any problem is, is this actually the problem? In other words when the balance wheels in the watch and it's spinning does it look like the arms or where there supposed to be. There's no point in bending them out if they seem to be right.

then bending them isn't really a problem if there is a problem providing somebody just squeeze the balance wheel and didn't get creative. If it was just a simple arms bent in sometimes I bend it out with my fingers other times there's a special tool because sometimes you want to be very specific where you do the bending. But for right now let's just see if it really is the issue because there's something I saw on one of your images is bothering me then as the balance wheels out of the watch you get a really sharp image of the hairspring looking straight down.

then I went back through all of your posts from the beginning and looked at the pictures and videos and not sure how helpful but was more like concerns. Then because I was trying to grass where we currently are I read all your messages on the previous page and I have questions.

As I see you have a Chinese 1000 timing machine how about giving us some pictures of the watch on the machine so we can see what it looks like. I have concerns. But rather than telling you the concerns I like to just take a step back and look at the big picture what's going on with the watch.

 

37 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

Looking again at your balance wheel, it appears to be missing the meantime screws. Are there threaded holes directly in line with the arms?

 

being curious about that I went to the usual link below and no mean time screws. Then as I suspected the watches gone through a lot of evolutions and variations.

Also looking online to see if I can find additional balance wheels to look at that becomes problematic due to the variations of the watch. Which is why we can seemingly see other balance wheels like in this discussion whether different supposedly the same watch where they're not actually the same watch. Did find somebody it had one entirely disassembled and the picture was online it looks like the exact same movement and I got a nice image of the hairspring from that. So at least you can see where the Olivera coil is supposed to be.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_30_2

 

 

Omega 30 T2 balance complete with hairspring.JPG

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22 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

you get a really sharp image of the hairspring looking straight down.

 

Like this?

PXL_20221101_100713607.thumb.jpg.3c909c3b87cf83c12164fd009276e68f.jpg

PXL_20221101_101519978.thumb.jpg.80b2cc3f5a293004046335a15f178041.jpg

or do you mean out of the movement?

32 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

As I see you have a Chinese 1000 timing machine how about giving us some pictures of the watch on the machine so we can see what it looks like.

Like this?

PXL_20221101_100120487.thumb.jpg.25361dc2029e67088075cc85a8452912.jpg

Just straight lines... almost no beat error.

34 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Did find somebody it had one entirely disassembled and the picture was online it looks like the exact same movement and I got a nice image of the hairspring from that. So at least you can see where the Olivera coil is supposed to be.

I looked at many examples online that were supposed to be from a 30T2 movement, but your example really matches mine very well.

36 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

then I went back through all of your posts from the beginning and looked at the pictures and videos

Thanks!  Please let me know if there are other photos I can provide...

Here's another slow-mo video from the top.  Resolution not so good but I can do better I'm sure...

 

PXL_20221101_100615124.jpg

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from the videos it looks to me like the balance wheel is right doesn't look like the arms are bent in. Doesn't mean they couldn't be bent out a just a tiny bit if we really had to. Not quite sure what I think about the hairspring.

Then a note regarding the hairspring you do want to make sure when you look inside ways that the over coil isn't touching the upper bridge sometimes that happens that would make you run fast. Also make sure they hairspring is flat not touching the balance arms another reason why had run fast

then the timing machine was what I was looking for it be nice if you had one crown down though. Because at least with the timing machine we have something to work with we know you're running fast. We know the amplitude is bad you probably haven't cleaned and lubricated things properly and or replace the mainspring which is probably cents.

Then hairspring photo that was bothering me? it was on the other page you might a fixed it already it's hard to tell in the pictures on this page does are not sharp enough. You notice I snipped out the center part it looks like in that image they hairspring comes out from the pinning point and dips back EN and may be touches the collet if so that would be why you're running fast

then do you have a demagnetizer? I'm pretty sure that's a steel hairspring and magnetized hairsprings also have issues.

Omega 30 T2 hairspring problem.JPG

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1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

make sure when you look inside ways that the over coil isn't touching the upper bridge

I'm pretty sure it doesn't touch, at least not in dial-down position.  It is a difficult angle for me to get an absolutely clear view, but the overcoil certainly goes below the bridge. 

In crown down position, I'm less sure; the amplitude is even lower (see below) and the overcoil appears to barely reach the bridge when the hairspring contracts.

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

make sure they hairspring is flat not touching the balance arms

This I can confirm.  Absolutely flat, no contact with balance arms.

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

it be nice if you had one crown down though

With the crown down it is much worse:

PXL_20221101_200512194.thumb.jpg.e435a7044809d0d2cd1d2ff1a5e34a09.jpg

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

the amplitude is bad you probably haven't cleaned and lubricated things properly and or replace the mainspring

Though I'm just a hobbyist, I did go over all the jewels for the train and balance and cleaned and re-oiled them a few times.  I cleaned all the parts of the movement by hand using solvents and a brush, and cleaned and greased the mainspring -- I did not replace it, and maybe I should do that.

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

notice I snipped out the center part it looks like in that image they hairspring comes out from the pinning point and dips back EN and may be touches the collet

I see what you mean!  I know the technique for fixing this.  I think I can do it.

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

do you have a demagnetizer?

Yes I tried several times without any positive effect.

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1 hour ago, gaber said:

With the crown down it is much worse:

I wouldn't worry about the timekeeping until you get the amplitude up a higher. That number is very unacceptable.

1 hour ago, gaber said:

Though I'm just a hobbyist

yes I know but I still get to ask the question I don't want to assume that you sprayed it with WD-40 for lubrication it's always nice to ask. taxi quite amazing what that lubrication can do for watch repair..

 

1 hour ago, gaber said:

I did not replace it, and maybe I should do that.

he wouldn't have to replace it if it physically looked okay. In other words you took it out and it looked nice which is a poor description but if you take it out and it's a little tiny coil that resembles an oversize hairspring then it needs to be replaced. But even with a set mainspring wound up you should still see better amplitude than you're seeing now. Basically a set mainspring means that it wouldn't run 24 hours.

then just a reminder watch repair sometimes involves repair cleaning isn't necessarily a repair. There were going to have to look into wire amplitude is really bad. As cleaning didn't fix the problem

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14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

it looks like in that image they hairspring comes out from the pinning point and dips back EN and may be touches the collet

How about this.  Before:

1116461271_Omega30T2hairspringproblem.JPG.6a3b532879b2e9833320c237f187a5c4.jpeg.12dd0fa35fb0ecca74596420b58a1704.jpeg

After:

PXL_20221102_080734322.thumb.jpg.ef156a1aa9fb1c0ffbe8282ed149927b.jpg

P.S. Here is the hairspring from different angles to check flatness:

PXL_20221102_075059227.thumb.jpg.999cabaeba1b8cef83751ef9531d4834.jpgPXL_20221102_075125034.thumb.jpg.fea79ebbe518293a296c9f03b0ca24ea.jpgPXL_20221102_075218028.thumb.jpg.eb33725685e1e587407441062f179c27.jpgPXL_20221102_075313036.thumb.jpg.d2e043d6543301718871ec192dd004cb.jpgPXL_20221102_075408280.thumb.jpg.9b6a5c77fb7e3e268e126d20dc2dde46.jpg

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22 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Pop the collet on a smoothing broach, obviously dont push it down the broach.

smoothing broach is nice because you can rotate and look at it but there is a better way. I swiped an image out of a Rolex service manual. A better way to look at hairsprings is to put the hairspring back on the balance wheel. then you need a set a calipers of the right type you can spin the balance wheel look at the hairspring and see if it is flat or not. also good for verifying whether they hairspring is centered. It's a lot easier to do it this way than it is in the watch. Then when it's good enough they can go back in the watch because that's the ultimate place where the hairspring has to be right.

38 minutes ago, gaber said:

After:

then yes the after looks really really good considering how bad is was the first place.

 

 

hairspring adjustment.JPG

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Quick update.  After adjusting the hairspring at the collet, I also made some minor tweeks for concentricity of the outer coil, and I reduced the bend at the collet to try to make the overcoil pass between the middle of the timing pins (without resting on either side).  Still not quite there with the last item, but thought I'd take the timing again to see where we are:

dial downPXL_20221103_171049208.thumb.jpg.eee93f880d25d9adf90890397167f01b.jpg

crown down:

PXL_20221103_170809339.thumb.jpg.74cbc6096a21c76cc871cfebb41a4d8c.jpg

beat error is worse, but I haven't tried to correct that yet.  Also cleaned and re-oiled all the jewels on the train of wheels.

Can get the amplitude up to 230 by applying a bit of extra torque on the mainsrping barrel.

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2 hours ago, gaber said:

beat error is worse, but I haven't tried to correct that yet.  Also cleaned and re-oiled all the jewels on the train of wheels.

Can get the amplitude up to 230 by applying a bit of extra torque on the mainsrping barrel

yes every time you change the position of the hairspring it can have the consequence of changing the beat . So this is why you should put it in beats now.

applying more pressure indicates that what did your mainspring look like when you took it out was set? Not only can they get set in other words they won't expand out power the watch for 24 hours but they can also get soft with time they just don't have enough power which is why if it looks bad or blue in color you should probably change it.

oh and then was looking at the picture zero movement up above are you missing some of the plates screws for the mainspring barrel bridge? Looks like there's three places in the only have one screw?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

you should put it in beats now

will do, but I wanted to do one more adjustment on the hairspring.

 

4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

what did your mainspring look like when you took it out

I seem to remember that it was a bit bent on the inner part where it hooks on to the arbor, but I don't recall otherwise.  I think I'll disassemble it once more and take a photo.

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

are you missing some of the plates screws for the mainspring barrel bridge?

There are two empty holes through the barrel bridge, but that is where the case screws go on this movement.

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3 hours ago, gaber said:

collet to try to make the overcoil pass between the middle of the timing pins (without resting on either side). 

just as a reminder unless you using a microscope there really shouldn't be any spacing between the hairspring and those pins it has to slide is still has to be really really close. If this was a flash hairspring you can have spacing. So I guess it just depends upon what you're using the lookout of the microscope it might look like a lot of space.

56 minutes ago, gaber said:

There are two empty holes through the barrel bridge, but that is where the case screws go on this movement.

just to be clear on the unusual location of the casings screws I circled where the three plates screws go one of them is there but the the other two are not.

 

Omega barrel bridge screws.JPG

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9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

just to be clear on the unusual location of the casings screws I circled where the three plates screws go one of them is there but the the other two are not.

Ah!  Yes you are right, sorry.  Actually, when I took that photo, I had mistakenly put two of the bridge screws into the holes for the case screws (which have a larger recess).  In red I'm circling the misplaced screws.

8677710_Omegabarrelbridgescrews.JPG.7e55488066559b92d59ffcdcfe7665ac.jpeg.6c8c361076ff6eaa891280733647343d.jpeg

Later on, being more careful, I put them in their correct places, i.e. those that you circled.  Thanks, I hadn't even noticed the original error to be honest.

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

just as a reminder unless you using a microscope there really shouldn't be any spacing between the hairspring and those pins

Thanks, I don't yet have a microscope (I'm considering to buy myself this one: SWIFT S7-BS520-144), I'm using a 20X loop and the hairspring still rests on the inner pin. 

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On 11/2/2022 at 9:52 AM, JohnR725 said:

smoothing broach is nice because you can rotate and look at it but there is a better way. I swiped an image out of a Rolex service manual. A better way to look at hairsprings is to put the hairspring back on the balance wheel. then you need a set a calipers of the right type you can spin the balance wheel look at the hairspring and see if it is flat or not. also good for verifying whether they hairspring is centered. It's a lot easier to do it this way than it is in the watch. Then when it's good enough they can go back in the watch because that's the ultimate place where the hairspring has to be right.

then yes the after looks really really good considering how bad is was the first place.

 

 

hairspring adjustment.JPG

How are these different from conventional truing and poising calipers that normally hold just the balance wheel ? Is ther a reason that one side the arms are a different shape the thd figure of eight calipers ? 

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24 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

How are these different from conventional truing and poising calipers that normally hold just the balance wheel ? Is ther a reason that one side the arms are a different shape the thd figure of eight calipers ? 

These hold the balance very lightly by the tips of the staff, and offer a better view of the hairspring for truing. Regular truing calipers are bulkier, some more than others, and the fact they support the staff on the conical portion means the balance can be turned, tends to not necessarily spin freely but without play.

 

I have some like the Rolex model (marked Excofa), but I really really like the hairspring truing calipers that Levin made. It supports more on the conical portion (safer), but gives a very clear view and the lower support is easily adjusted to the balance spins freely.

 

 

levin hairspring calipers.jpg

Edited by nickelsilver
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1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

These hold the balance very lightly by the tips of the staff, and offer a better view of the hairspring for truing. Regular truing calipers are bulkier, some more than others, and the fact they support the staff on the conical portion means the balance can be turned, tends to not necessarily spin freely but without play.

 

I have some like the Rolex model (marked Excofa), but I really really like the hairspring truing calipers that Levin made. It supports more on the conical portion (safer), but gives a very clear view and the lower support is easily adjusted to the balance spins freely.

 

 

levin hairspring calipers.jpg

Thanks Nicklesilver.  I do have some calipers no maker's name on them and without the truing arm, i'm sure i can make something. With both poising and truing ends. Ive seen some Bergeon with the same shape frame as in John's example, just wondered if they were worth having. These are the ones i have

1667654154288224257776934651876.jpg

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I do have some calipers no maker's name on them and without the truing arm, i'm sure i can make something. With both poising and truing ends. Ive seen some Bergeon with the same shape frame as in John's example, just wondered if they were worth having. These are the ones i have

the ones you have should work just fine. I just posted what Rolex showed in their book.

the difference is the Rolex ones do give a lot of visibility but  worthless for truing the balance wheel unless you want to break your pivots off. A lot of this at some point in time just becomes a personal choice thing..

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25 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

the ones you have should work just fine. I just posted what Rolex showed in their book.

the difference is the Rolex ones do give a lot of visibility but  worthless for truing the balance wheel unless you want to break your pivots off. A lot of this at some point in time just becomes a personal choice thing..

Thanks John , i was just wondering if the rolex's frame shape had a different application. 

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