Jump to content

Omega 30T2: Safety pin too long?


Recommended Posts

Hi, and thanks again for the comments!

I am tempted, by nature, to dive right in with this -- I suffer from mild overconfidence :).  But I am old enough now to recognize the wisdom in taking it slow. 

I will need to acquire some "scrap movements" for my practice.  Any recommendations for that?  On the one hand one wants to avoid nice movements, due to the risk of breaking something nice.  On the other hand, very cheap movements may be frustrating to work on due to low quality of the construction, no?

Do you guys recommend intentionally bending hairsprings out of shape, and then correcting them?  Otherwise, I will have to search for movements with incorrectly shaped springs (and will have to know how to spot them).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The least expensive pockèt watches I know that come with berguet overcoil are Russian made, Malnija, vostock and the like. 

A bad news is the one on your watch may not be the right one( incompatible with the balance wheel) in which case even if you get as good as paul berguet himself, the two simply would not vibrate to produce the design beat, so while someone may not intentionally ruin the overcoil, someone having slapped a bergeuet overcoil on the balance wheel just to get the watch sold is a strong possibility. Having said that the good news is you have the weights on the rim of the balance which broadens the compatibilty interval, so I wouldn't worry about it now specially that you can find inexpensive assortments of overcoil HS's. 

I assure you, if you master shaping and vibrating overcoils, you can generate yourself some revenue just doing that. So by all means go ahead, members here got you covered. :lol:

Regards Joe

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have found this thread most interesting and though my input has been limited I have followed waht others have to say. Also, nice with a forum were memebers to get involved. I wish you all the luck with solving this.


However, I got interested in overcoils and started reading online what I could find. The hairspring is the heart of the watch and real science and should be treated with respect. I found the following link interesting and perhaps others will too.

 

https://watchmakingjourney.com/2014/06/14/week-5-days-3-4-forming-breguet-overcoils/

Edited by Flubber
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
1 minute ago, rodabod said:

Hi, the 23.7 is definitely not suitable. 
 

You need a 30T2 or the later 26X type but with Breguet overcoil. 
 

I’d aim to spend about £50 if you can. 

Thanks!  Is there a good source online for determining cross-compatibility ... or is it just experience?

For entertainment, I thought I'd also post this example of a hairspring in rather sad shape (amazon link):

 

1616250247_ScreenShot2020-09-17at3_22_36PM.png.80e9375fed84307a9e2009643111d981.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This was just based on experience. I’ve worked on a lot of those movements. The only balance which is close in some respects is the 26.5 which is sort of like a miniaturised 30T2. 

But, do yourself a favour and get a proper 30T2 balance!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The stiffness is very likely to be  due to long guard pin, but some used movements are put together out of what the seller has.

Stiffness can also be due wrong impulse jewel/ roller slapped on by a watch destroyer,  if the pin is too fat to enter the fork horn, it refuses to do so peacefully. 

I,d capture the crime scene  on vid with high magnifiction. 

Regards Joe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

The stiffness is very likely to be  due to long guard pin, but some used movements are put together out of what the seller has.

Stiffness can also be due wrong impulse jewel/ roller slapped on by a watch destroyer,  if the pin is too fat to enter the fork horn, it refuses to do so peacefully. 

I,d capture the crime scene  on vid with high magnifiction. 

Regards Joe

I like your style, Joe.  I am committed to first fixing the problem with the hairspring/balance.  When that is settled, I will go back to the scene of the original crime, and see about the stiffness.  From my memory, the impulse jewel fits snugly in the fork, but I can't tell if it is too snug.  Maybe shortening the guard pin a hair or two will bring it all into harmony.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...

Dear all,

I just wanted to follow up on this post, even though it has been a long, long time.  I needed to take some time off from the hobby for health reasons, but I recently got back into it and had a bit of practice shaping hairsprings, and found the confidence to take this one on.

This was a wide ranging discussion, but I think the main conclusion in the end is that the hairspring needed to be reshaped.  There were two main bends that I noticed, one (1) at 90 from the collet, which reduced the spacing in the coils, making them non-concentric, and another (2), which occured right before the overcoil.  The latter bend seemed especially problematic since it actually could cause contact between the last two coils.  Here is a photo of the spring in the state I found it:

IMG_20200831_170715.jpg.850a6cb9216c3dee412858270af34433.jpg

I corrected those using the technique described in Mark's youtube video, and this was what I obtained:

PXL_20220928_155352258.thumb.jpg.92fdcbadd82a6d2a4ec697c40635a36f.jpg

You may notice that the outer coil is still not perfectly concentric (more on that later).  I also installed the hairspring on the balance cock (without the balance wheel) to verify that the collet aligned with the top balance jewel:

PXL_20220928_155209118.thumb.jpg.69dfc7045b4889a1009ad962fa3ef75b.jpg

After reinstalling the balance complete I checked the balance wheel (without pallets) for free motion, and found it still demonstrated the behavior of coming to an abrupt stop, i.e. the original problem was not improved the adjustment to the hairspring shape.

I reasoned that this behavior could only be explained by some additional source of friction, and I finally managed to see that the hairspring, when viewed from the side was not parallel with the plane of the balance wheel and in fact was making contact with one of the balance "spokes" at about 180 degrees from the stud.  Therefore, I decided to make another adjustment was necessary to bring the hairspring level and remove this point of contact.

I decided to make the final adjustment at the stud.  I.e., I would "twist" (as opposed to "bend"; see the distinction here) the hairspring so that the stud would be perpendicular to the plane of the hairspring.  This is the natural orientation of the stud, since it will be forced into this position when installed into the balance cock.  If it is not vertical when not installed, then installing it will create a torque on the balance spring that will tilt the entire plane of the spring -- that is the precise problem I was facing, I reasoned.  Here is a (bad) photo of how the stud looked on the hairspring before adjustment.

PXL_20220928_155502069.thumb.jpg.4ad6609c339ae1a2bd39bc957935d2ee.jpg

The photo doesn't make it so clear, but the stud is not exactly perpendicular and needed to be adjusted slightly in the direction of the arrow.  Well I made this adjustment and reinstalled the balance complete and the movement finally moved freely.

So now the movement finally runs, although the amplitude is a bit low (180-200) and its running way too fast (+200 s/day).  The hairspring does not appear magnetized to me (coils not sticking together), but I demagnetized the whole thing anyway, and the timing got a bit worse.  I'm not so great with the demagnetizer yet, but I managed to get it back.

Anyway, I can only guess that the hairspring is still not in perfect form, bringing me back to the subject of whether I actually made the coils sufficiently concentric.  What do you guys think?  Should I expect this kind of speedup from slightly non-concentric coils?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, gaber said:

So now the movement finally runs, although the amplitude is a bit low (180-200)

Well done! I'm just about to start practising HS manipulation myself so this was inspiring reading. Anyway, I'm curious to know how you determine the amplitude. The reason I'm curious is that the amplitude might be greater than you may think if you're using a Chinese WeiShi as described in the below-linked post.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, gaber said:

Dear all,

I just wanted to follow up on this post, even though it has been a long, long time.  I needed to take some time off from the hobby for health reasons, but I recently got back into it and had a bit of practice shaping hairsprings, and found the confidence to take this one on.

This was a wide ranging discussion, but I think the main conclusion in the end is that the hairspring needed to be reshaped.  There were two main bends that I noticed, one (1) at 90 from the collet, which reduced the spacing in the coils, making them non-concentric, and another (2), which occured right before the overcoil.  The latter bend seemed especially problematic since it actually could cause contact between the last two coils.  Here is a photo of the spring in the state I found it:

IMG_20200831_170715.jpg.850a6cb9216c3dee412858270af34433.jpg

I corrected those using the technique described in Mark's youtube video, and this was what I obtained:

PXL_20220928_155352258.thumb.jpg.92fdcbadd82a6d2a4ec697c40635a36f.jpg

You may notice that the outer coil is still not perfectly concentric (more on that later).  I also installed the hairspring on the balance cock (without the balance wheel) to verify that the collet aligned with the top balance jewel:

PXL_20220928_155209118.thumb.jpg.69dfc7045b4889a1009ad962fa3ef75b.jpg

After reinstalling the balance complete I checked the balance wheel (without pallets) for free motion, and found it still demonstrated the behavior of coming to an abrupt stop, i.e. the original problem was not improved the adjustment to the hairspring shape.

I reasoned that this behavior could only be explained by some additional source of friction, and I finally managed to see that the hairspring, when viewed from the side was not parallel with the plane of the balance wheel and in fact was making contact with one of the balance "spokes" at about 180 degrees from the stud.  Therefore, I decided to make another adjustment was necessary to bring the hairspring level and remove this point of contact.

I decided to make the final adjustment at the stud.  I.e., I would "twist" (as opposed to "bend"; see the distinction here) the hairspring so that the stud would be perpendicular to the plane of the hairspring.  This is the natural orientation of the stud, since it will be forced into this position when installed into the balance cock.  If it is not vertical when not installed, then installing it will create a torque on the balance spring that will tilt the entire plane of the spring -- that is the precise problem I was facing, I reasoned.  Here is a (bad) photo of how the stud looked on the hairspring before adjustment.

PXL_20220928_155502069.thumb.jpg.4ad6609c339ae1a2bd39bc957935d2ee.jpg

The photo doesn't make it so clear, but the stud is not exactly perpendicular and needed to be adjusted slightly in the direction of the arrow.  Well I made this adjustment and reinstalled the balance complete and the movement finally moved freely.

So now the movement finally runs, although the amplitude is a bit low (180-200) and its running way too fast (+200 s/day).  The hairspring does not appear magnetized to me (coils not sticking together), but I demagnetized the whole thing anyway, and the timing got a bit worse.  I'm not so great with the demagnetizer yet, but I managed to get it back.

Anyway, I can only guess that the hairspring is still not in perfect form, bringing me back to the subject of whether I actually made the coils sufficiently concentric.  What do you guys think?  Should I expect this kind of speedup from slightly non-concentric coils?

Watching it under magnification while it is running in the movement may give you some better indication of the problem. Are you able to post a slow motion video of it oscillating, others may pick up on something you might be missing. Then once ruling out that the hs is not the issue you could look elseshere for low amplitude. Thoughly cleaned and well lubricated an obvious must. I see mate  watchie is here as well, as we both know from a few weeks back,  power to produce good amplitude starts within the barrel. Pivot condition also extremely important, i have one on my bench at the moment that would just not pick up amplitude DU + DD My new monster microscope has revealed completely flat pivots at x40. A good reason for me to try pivot polishing. 

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Well done! I'm just about to start practising HS manipulation myself so this was inspiring reading. Anyway, I'm curious to know how you determine the amplitude. The reason I'm curious is that the amplitude might be greater than you may think if you're using a Chinese WeiShi as described in the below-linked post.

 

Eyup matey . Hope you are good. I haven't  read your posts on the tg yet but it looks interesting and I'm curious  about it. h s manipulation a very worthy skill under your belt for sure. I've been discussing vibrating with John and getting some good information, have a quick look he links to an old Fried video ( i was 7 at the time ) doing some crazy manipulating tricks, you may have watched it already.  Its something I'm determined to learn. Start at the hardest point and work back to the easier aspects 😆

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

have a quick look he links to an old Fried video ( i was 7 at the time ) doing some crazy manipulating tricks, you may have watched it already. 

No, I haven't, but where's the link? I'm so interested I'd even be willing to pay you for it! 🙏

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I'm curious to know how you determine the amplitude. The reason I'm curious is that the amplitude might be greater than you may think if you're using a Chinese WeiShi

Thanks for sharing the post, I will keep it in mind that the measurement could be inaccurate.  Indeed, I have the Weishi 1000, but I don't think this one has adjustable gain.  It does have the lift angle, which I set to 49 according to what I found online for the 30T2 movement.

5 hours ago, Klassiker said:

My guess is that the coils are still coming together or rubbing somewhere.

I think you must be right, but I haven't found it yet.

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you able to post a slow motion video of it oscillating, others may pick up on something you might be missing.

I'll do that

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

have a quick look he links to an old Fried video

What @VWatchie said -- I'd be delighted to have that link!

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you able to post a slow motion video of it oscillating, others may pick up on something you might be missing.

Here are some videos, thanks.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

No, I haven't, but where's the link? I'm so interested I'd even be willing to pay you for it! 🙏

Haha funny watchie, thats not necessary lol. I'm not sure how to link threads. It was only a day or so ago, I'll find the thread.

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

No, I haven't, but where's the link? I'm so interested I'd even be willing to pay you for it! 🙏

Here you go matey. Its only a short vid and sort of funny in an old American 70's documentary way. Good to watch the old master at work though.

https://youtu.be/egCwtMMoOCU

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, gaber said:

Here are some videos, thanks.

Recording a slo-mo video is the only way to determine the amplitude for sure. Looking at your videos I'd say you have something like 190 degrees. So, very much in line with what you stated previously.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Recording a slo-mo video is the only way to determine the amplitude for sure. Looking at your videos I'd say you have something like 190 degrees. So, very much in line with what you stated previously.

Tg readings seem to coincides. Need a much closer video of just the hs expanding and contracting to help  determine any issues there. Tbh i do like to start checking with the start of assembly, so the opposite where power is created.  This way you are not having to back track with fault finding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Need a much closer video of just the hs expanding and contracting to help  determine any issues there

I'm having trouble getting closer.  Just using my smart phone with a little clip-on macro lense.  One day, perhaps I'll buy a microscope...  Here's what I got:

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, gaber said:

I'm having trouble getting closer.  Just using my smart phone with a little clip-on macro lense.  One day, perhaps I'll buy a microscope...  Here's what I got:

 

 

Thats a bit better mate. Some smart phones have a macro setting which is ok. I find pulling back a bit and then zooming in digitally gives a better result. A microscope is invaluable for fault finding, even a cheaper one can be better than a loupe. Some folk just dont get on with loupes, I'm not particularly good with them. My missus uses a small cheap russian scope that works well, ive seen these for as little as 20 quid. I'll borrow it later and post up a photo of it and a shot of a zoomed in balance when i get home later.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Greetings everyone, and especially Breguet hairspring experts!

I've been pondering this for some days, and after carefully studying the motion of the balance, I'm fairly convinced that there is nothing touching the hairspring, other than what should, e.g. the regulator pins.  The hairspring is clean, level and concentric, not bunching up in any places, not coming close to touching any part of the balance, etc.  Nevertheless, it runs very fast +240 s/day.

I wonder if the issue is something special, related to the fact that it has a Breguet overcoil.  It occured to me that there is a straight section and round sections, and these might not contribute equally to the spring's effective length (and timing). 

I studied all the photographs I could find of 30T2 hairsprings.  Here is a typical example, from a NOS part for sale on ebay ($350, btw, prices have really shot up recently!):

1971518312_s-l1600(5).jpg.dab91d4bf2812bc76faf21786c194863.jpg

compared with mine:

PXL_20220928_155352258.thumb.jpg.aeed3b5e33c684bfd7645bd08df41a67.jpg

The difference that catches my attention is how the straight section of the NOS hairspring seems shorter and more clearly delineated from the curved portions.  It goes across closely to the collet, and the terminal curve follows the 5th-6th inner coils, whereas mine follows number 2 and 3. 

Might this shape result in a significantly greater total length of coil (curved portion)?  If so, could this explain why mine is running so fast, since the overcoil is "eating up" coil length, therefore shortening the effective length?

Now I am just speculating, so perhaps I should read more about how Breguet coils work -- any suggested reading?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, gaber said:

Nevertheless, it runs very fast +240 s/day.

5 hours ago, gaber said:

The difference that catches my attention is how the straight section of the NOS hairspring seems shorter and more clearly delineated from the curved portions.  It goes across closely to the collet, and the terminal curve follows the 5th-6th inner coils, whereas mine follows number 2 and 3. 

Might this shape result in a significantly greater total length of coil (curved portion)?  If so, could this explain why mine is running so fast, since the overcoil is "eating up" coil length, therefore shortening the effective length?

Now I am just speculating, so perhaps I should read more about how Breguet coils work -- any suggested reading?

here three pages in the discussion I refuse to reread the whole thing. So I see two pictures two different hairsprings are they yours?

You should be able to look at the hairspring on the balance wheel in the watch is the hairspring centered are the regulator pins where there supposed to be if so wherever the over coil is is where it's supposed to be.

For instance if you look at the hairspring on top notice how the last part of the over coil is in considerably farther than the other one so far so in that the regulator pins wins even fit that so they hairsprings are so dramatically different you wouldn't build just swap them

then as a reminder if you have a swapped your hairspring because in over coil hairspring they were replacement components you do have to match the balance wheel to new hairspring because they still have to be matched.

also look really carefully at your balance arms if they had been squeezed the least little bit and are in just a little bit that would be why you're running fast.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

here three pages in the discussion I refuse to reread the whole thing. So I see two pictures two different hairsprings are they yours?

Hi John, yeah I should probably make a new thread since we've discussed so much.  But most of it is not relevant to the current issue. 

The first picture is not mine.  It is just a photo I found online of a NOS part for sale on ebay.  The second photo is mine.

40 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

You should be able to look at the hairspring on the balance wheel in the watch is the hairspring centered are the regulator pins where there supposed to be if so wherever the over coil is is where it's supposed to be.

the hairspring is centered (collet over jewel when installed onto balance cock without balance wheel).  The position of the overcoil relative to the regulator pins is something I'm actually not so sure about.  One thing that is clear is that the overcoil is not centered between the regulator pins, but is resting against one.

42 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

look really carefully at your balance arms if they had been squeezed the least little bit and are in just a little bit that would be why you're running fast.

I'm not sure I follow this last comment.  What do you mean by the "balance arms" being squeezed?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...