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Omega 30T2: Safety pin too long?


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6 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Even bent pivot dont so abruptly and forcefully stop the balance wheel.

I put my two cents on balance wheel hitting something.

I'm finding this fairly compelling, I'm going to investigate to see if anything is rubbing, including those ideas you mentioned in your previous post.  Many thanks.

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Hi  Yes I have had a look at the pivots and from what I can make out they look ok, But the reason for the abrupt stop needs some investigation. Its as though there is some obstruction having an influence on the balance. I would remove the pallet and mount the balance on its own to prevent any out side influence and continue the investigation.

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9 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Upon reflection into the problem  I should remove the balance wheel and spring from the cock and inspect the jewels  top and bottom and end stones, as the impression I get is of a cracked jewel or a chip causing the balance to return to the set point with a definite stop.

Thanks, I will do this first!  There is a chance my initial inspection missed something.  Then I will strip away anything obscuring my view of the balance motion, and I will look for points of contact/friction.

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Hi all!  Thanks again for the interest, and helpful discussion.  Here's an update. 

I took apart the upper and lower jewel assemblies and took a real hard look.  To my eyes the jewels look absolutely perfect.  The endstones look perfectly smooth and flat.  The inner jewels have perfectly round holes, set inside a broader, sloped circular hole.  Also smooth looking.  I used pegwood to feel the inner surface of these larger holes and there was no rough feeling.  Pictures below! 

There was a bit of white crud, mostly on the top end stone.  I cleaned all the stones using a paintbrush with benzine.  I'll re-oil when I reassemble.

I guess they could be simply the incorrect jewels, but aside from that, I guess it is not a problem with the jewels?  I'm moving on to investigating possible friction on the balance wheel and hairspring, unless one of you notices something about the jewels.

*****

PHOTOS:

Mainspring cock and hairspring taken apart:

IMG_20200831_170646.thumb.jpg.c7366f83f96a3c7f9acea475177381e6.jpg

IMG_20200831_171722.thumb.jpg.2949935c758a3a43fa5764f6247108f5.jpg

1. Top endstone:

IMG_20200831_173509.thumb.jpg.3fbc9bdaca19f87da143b8ac5dcf862e.jpg

2. Top jewel with pivot hole (view from dial side, then other side):

IMG_20200831_174218.thumb.jpg.83d7b514dbd61d0d13332741e7103a46.jpgIMG_20200831_174335.thumb.jpg.db7d70e6278983d70e6989638738574a.jpg

3. Bottom endstone:

IMG_20200831_175311.thumb.jpg.f640e7785572c8715a2e88aa26f4c4ec.jpg

4. Bottom inner jewel with pivot hole (sorry, not the best photo):

MVIMG_20200831_172642.thumb.jpg.f078186752d5f9e196ccbe83845c532c.jpg

IMG_20200831_173949.jpg

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  Ahh  one other thing if all else fails, check the stud point on the balance rim or mark it and remove the spring and run the balance wheel in the watch without the spring and the pallet and re check the rotation for freedom. Its a bit of a faf but requires logical progression. The fault exists with the pallet removed and the jewels checked so the next step is to remove the spring and test again.

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5 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

turn your attention to the balance spring

 

1 minute ago, watchweasol said:

run the balance wheel in the watch without the spring

Both excellent suggestions. I'm attaching a image snipped out from the image above one of the things I did notice in the discussion is the lack of good pictures of the watch with the balance wheel in the watch. It's amazing how bad a watch will run if the over coil isn't where it's supposed to be.

Then regarding the image that's a really interesting curve for the over coil isn't it? Then you need to put the balance wheel back in the watch and get us a decent picture I suspect were going to find that they hairspring is not correct the over coil doesn't quite look right it might be right because over coils come in so many variations of the curvature but it still doesn't look quite right. So classically to find out if you have a hairspring balance wheel problem it has to be in the watch because that's where the problem is taking the balance wheel out isn't always helpful because it's very likely you could be bent at the stud and that doesn't show up outside of the watch it's really hard to see that angle versus inside the watch.

 

 

Omega bad hairspring.JPG

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OK, watchweasol and JohnR725, I'm shifting attention to the hairspring. 

34 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

run the balance wheel in the watch without the spring and the pallet

I like this idea a lot, seems logical.  But I don't think I have the right tools to do it.  I may need to buy some sharp hand levers to remove the collet, and release the spring from the balance wheel. 

27 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

regarding the image that's a really interesting curve for the over coil isn't it?

Comparing my spring with examples online, I agree that overcoil portion of the spring is following an unusual arc, and seems to make an especially wide excursion just before it ends at the stud.

32 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

to find out if you have a hairspring balance wheel problem it has to be in the watch because that's where the problem is taking the balance wheel out isn't always helpful because it's very likely you could be bent at the stud and that doesn't show up outside of the watch it's really hard to see that angle versus inside the watch.

OK, I will try to get a better photo with it re-installed.  If I understand correctly, the photo should demonstrate the shape of the spring at the stud -- I will try to get different angles of that.  This will give a hint whether the spring is in the correct position while in operation.  If the spring is bent, it may be rubbing, on another section of spring or the balance wheel, causing it to slow the motion, (being especially pronounced at the point of minimal return force).  Am I understanding?

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You can use a safety razor to remove the hairspring, insert the blade into the seam between collet and balance(collet seat) , work your way around the staff to widen the seam you can then insert a screw driver blade instead and gradually lift.

I don't think you need to remove the hairspring though.

 I bet if you raise the stud to rasie the lower bend of the overcoil , you will see it was the lower bend hitting on spokes. 

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30 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I don't think you need to remove the hairspring though.

Right now just put the balance wheel back in without the fork and get decent photographs for us I'm in agreement with do not remove the hairspring because unless you have the right tools or more importance unless you know how and what you're doing You just going to make things worse.

 

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Hi   Yes as JohnR725 says if you have not the tools the chance of making it worse is greater, so in that case don't do it but as mentioned pay greater attention to the balance spring once its in the watch without the fork as somethings acting like a brake on the balance as Nucejoe mentioned the stud or JohnR725 the plane of the overcoil both are highly relavant.

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9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I bet if you raise the stud to rasie the lower bend of the overcoil , you will see it was the lower bend hitting on spokes. 

I'll keep an eye on this possibility!  Thanks.

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Right now just put the balance wheel back in without the fork and get decent photographs for us I'm in agreement with do not remove the hairspring because unless you have the right tools or more importance unless you know how and what you're doing You just going to make things worse.

OK guys, I'll keep the hairspring on and focus on getting some nice photographs!  I'll be back soon, thanks..

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You definitely have issues with that hairspring, and the issues start before the terminal curve. As you have already suggested, I would not adjust anything else before correcting this as it just introduces further variables. Certainly don’t remove the hairspring yet. And make sure it is degreased as contamination can sometimes give the impression of a bent coil. 

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Hi Everybody!  I'm surprised and happy to be getting all this feedback.  It seems to me that a consensus is emerging that we are dealing with a hairspring problem!  Below I present the results from my photo session.  Please let me know if there is anything that is unclear, or any additional angles that would be helpful.

I reassembled the balance, oiled the cleaned jewels, and reinstalled it into the movement (still without pallets).  Re-attaching the spring+wheel to the balance cock (using that little triangle stud) was a strange experience.  WIll have to look for a good technique for that.

It seems to me that the overcoil might be rubbing against the "undercoil", due to a bend in the coil that brings it prematurely in the "over" position.  To illustrate this idea I have drawn a red line  over my picture showing what I think the corrected path of the overcoil should be:

IMG_20200831_170715.jpg.6796376dbdc2e77c53638ff7d3755dcd.jpg

For comparison, here is a photo of a NOS (I believe) hairspring:

37332224_ScreenShot2020-09-01at6_46_56PM.png.ab0ff88b7772cfdb6def5396e813b4b1.png

22 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I bet if you raise the stud to rasie the lower bend of the overcoil , you will see it was the lower bend hitting on spokes.

Nucejoe, do you see evidence of your theory in these shots?    If I understand correctly, you are expecting contact with the spokes.  Perhaps the "undercoil" is rubbing the spokes in some place, due to pressure from the overcoil.  Is this your idea?  (I'm not sure I can raise the stud further, because of the pin on the underside that fixes the hairspring to the stud.)

Thanks to all!

**********

Now for the media... first a video showing the motion, then some stills:

IMG_20200901_175304.thumb.jpg.5ec955431a118a6c98ad542e78258bcb.jpgIMG_20200901_175052.thumb.jpg.5bfbc1e4f8ff58089e5c050c79377279.jpgIMG_20200901_175140.thumb.jpg.91153637f7145a5a89efbf6b7386aa24.jpgIMG_20200901_174929.thumb.jpg.f313e3c04872cb8149b142b890703473.jpgMVIMG_20200901_174901.thumb.jpg.2c9943f323c3472ee59edcb3b67f86a3.jpgIMG_20200901_174854.thumb.jpg.cb1c0a99b6c6a4d3ae3b5cabd5ea1dbd.jpgIMG_20200901_174753.thumb.jpg.a2a5e346c1ae231b44f3b66601f2578a.jpgIMG_20200901_174729.thumb.jpg.f67aa65cb75d479e1b2f54b0e156a882.jpg

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One of the things you have to be very careful about when you're learning watch repair is usually it's the simple things that catch you up. Like lifting up the balance wheel and bending the over coil or any hairspring. They hairspring is not flat and it's rubbing it's bad it's really Benton really rubbing it's very very bad.

Then the example balance wheel shouldn't even be here it's a bad influence? It's a bad influence because over coils, and literally hundreds of variations. So just because one watch hasn't over coil that looks one way doesn't mean it yours is going to look the same.

Some of these simplistic rules would be when you move the regulator through its arc the over coil should correspond to the ark and the hairspring shouldn't move around. That's what bothered me is the curvature for the spring goes out so far and then curves back in that's where it's probably bad but it will take some time staring at it to figure it out. It be really nice if we could find a new old stock balance wheel on eBay with a clear picture of where they hairspring is supposed to be.

One of the things that be very helpful right now is remove the pallet fork we only want the balance wheel and hairspring in. Then it actually be nice if you took all the rest of the parts off the plate and make it much much easier for you to see all around it makes for a great learning exercise. Because sometimes it's really hard to see in one direction with the gear train in.

Plus having the pallet fork in means conceivably it's interfering with the escape wheel that stopped and that might be some ear issues perhaps oh and as the original question had to do with the pallet fork can we get a picture the pallet fork because we  perhaps still baby having an issue there that we don't know about but probably not but we need a picture anyway.

I've attached a picture with a small green mark that's where I think the stud should be. Usually the curve the outer curve follows the regulator pins see you have to move the regulator from one extreme to the other and make sure the hairspring follows the curve. In one picture it look like the regulator pins are physically too close together in an over coil there supposed to be as close as possible as long as they hairspring slights unlike a flat hairspring where they can be opened just a tiny bit. Then about where the stud is it does look like there might be an issue but that's out of the watch I can't quite tell in the watch and did you remember to  demagnetized the watch because that is a steel hairspring and if it's magnetized that's going to be an issue.

 

Omega stud location.JPG

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6 hours ago, gaber said:

 

IMG_20200831_170715.jpg.6796376dbdc2e77c53638ff7d3755dcd.jpg

There are several issues here. The final turn of the main coil is bent inwards and this starts at around 11 o’clock in your photo. That outer coil should be concentric with the rest. 
 

It’s hard to judge the overcoil section until this is corrected. 
 

The stud is also misaligned with respect to the hairspring. It’s hard to tell where that bend occurs, but it’s usually very close to the stud itself. In my experience, it’s sometimes easiest to correct those bends by moving the hairspring near the stud while it is still fitted in the balance cock. 
 

If you don’t have much experience of hairspring manipulation then I’d buy either a replacement balance complete or a suitable early blue steel hairspring. 

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I had a watch where the hairspring hit the centre wheel. As Rodabod pointed out, your hs is a bit distorted and this could be the issue.

Apart from that, check that the other parts are not hitting the balance, a common mistake is fitting a wrong screw to the pallet cock. This is usually a screw with a thinner head to clear the balance but apart from that it may be quite similar to other screws in the watch.

Anilv

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Good morning!

11 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Your own theory is more reasonable, though still hard to invisige overcoil fouling undercoil would stop the balance so abruptly.

Thanks Nucejoe.  On the other hand, a definitive diagnosis would be good before I start bending the spring to try to fix it!

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

It be really nice if we could find a new old stock balance wheel on eBay with a clear picture of where they hairspring is supposed to be.

The photo I posted in my previous post I found here.  But there is also a photo from a post about a project of Marks:

post-1-0-99983600-1419082179_thumb.jpg.51b00b97fa67602b083c14db19e39fd3.jpg

It seems to me that these two photos agree about the correct shape of the hairspring:  Where the overcoil meets the undercoil, there is (1) a fairly sharp turn, sending it straight across (like it's cheating on a race).  When it reaches the other side, it does (2) another turn to resume it's "concentric" path, following the undercoil.  The overcoil manages to always stay within the bounds of the undercoil; it never makes the wide excursion in my example.

It seems to me that my coil has a 3rd bend (3), in addition to the two above.  The location is marked with a BLUE ARROW here:

1141785307_IMG_20200831_170715(1).jpg.a77778c807fc68a0b0f18e5a370e93d5.jpg

My guess is that correcting this extra bend will make my coil look more like the other examples.

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

One of the things that be very helpful right now is remove the pallet fork

JohnR725, all the recent testing has been done with the pallet forks removed.  My initial assessment was that the pallet for was interacting with the roller/impulse jewel, but the problem mostly remains with the pallets removed.

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I've attached a picture with a small green mark that's where I think the stud should be.

Interesting.  I think this would make the last bit of the overcoil be more parallel to the outer ring of the undercoil, but the bend I suggest above may also do this to some extent -- see picture below too.  What do you think?

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

did you remember to  demagnetized the watch because that is a steel hairspring and if it's magnetized that's going to be an issue.

I don't have a demagnetizer yet.  The coils don't seem to be attracting together, but I will have a closer look with tweezers.

8 hours ago, rodabod said:

The final turn of the main coil is bent inwards and this starts at around 11 o’clock in your photo. That outer coil should be concentric with the rest. 

Yes, this makes sense!  The other examples show this portion as concentric, nicely spaced.  I think the proposed bend at the BLUE ARROW, and maybe a very mild adjustment earlier toward 11 o'clock, might mostly fix this.

8 hours ago, rodabod said:

The stud is also misaligned with respect to the hairspring.

I think that I see what you mean.  It should be "pointing out", right?  But I think this will already be a bit better if the position of the overcoil is adjusted to be concentric, as you described.

8 hours ago, rodabod said:

If you don’t have much experience of hairspring manipulation then I’d buy either a replacement balance complete or a suitable early blue steel hairspring. 

I have zero experience with hairspring manipulation.  I'm new to this hobby overall.  Replacing the whole thing seems great, but I think there aren't so many of these parts available.  Do you have a source in mind?  On the other hand, if I've decided to scrap this hairspring, I might as well give a try fixing it, no?  I could try the technique demonstrated by Mark here.

5 hours ago, anilv said:

a common mistake is fitting a wrong screw to the pallet cock

Interesting, but the pallet and pallet cock (and screws) are all out of the movement presently.

********

Thanks all for the ideas and feedback.  If I try manipulating the spring back into shape, I will certainly need to remove it from the wheel.  In that case, I can also do the test of placing the wheel back in without the spring, and check for free movement.  As I mentioned above, my theory is that there is one major bend that could be corrected to make this hairspring look significantly better.  Perhaps other minor adjustments will be needed.  One last try to demonstrate the idea:

IMG_0009.thumb.jpg.5d8c22554754fbf43074f6d475a681a6.jpg

Here, I've traced the overcoil and rotated it around the supposed bend point.  There may be an adjustment needed near the stud as mentioned by rodabod.  Also, the outer two rings are already too close (on the left) so a very fine adjustment further back may be needed as a very first step --- actually this is probably what rodabod meant Re: 11 o'clock.  Then I continue making adjustments as I move toward the stud.  How does that sound?

This will be a tricky operation, and of course above my level, so I'm gonna reflect for a bit.

Edited by gaber
weird broken links
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28 minutes ago, gaber said:

I'm new to this hobby overall.

This is where you should set this aside for future project.

This is where you should be in the practicing phase like practicing disassembling, reassembling cleaning a lubrication timing.  Then you need to find some scrap balance wheels that no one cares about and practice bending the hairspring's get good at bending hairsprings because unfortunately In watch repair mysterious creatures sneak it at night and mutilate our hairsprings and then we have to deal with that.

Unfortunately I checked the mega 37.5L-15P balance wheel I have in the image Does not cross reference to your balance wheel. ut is an example of an Omega balance wheel similar possibly to yours

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_37_5L_15P

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_30_2

Omega 37.5L-15P balance wheel.JPG

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