Vacheron Constantin 1003 movement problem

[cduke]

Hello All

This VC 1003 movement from the fifties cannot be wound. The ratchet and crown wheels are not rotated by the stem. Time for a new stem or perhaps something else. The keyless works appear to be OK. My guess is stem is worn.

Edited August 16, 2020 by cduke
Additional info

[Nucejoe]

If the winding pinion dosen't turns as you try to wind, check the stem, winding pinion, sliding pinion and the return bar, see if the spring pushing the return bar is dislodged or broke or weak, otherwise if the winding pinion turns but doesn't turn the crown pinion, winding pinion/ crown pinion got worn teeth. This check list should about do it.

Good luck.

[rodabod]

There is another common issue on manual-wind watches which is a worn stem hole which causes play in the stem. 
 

I’d take the advice above. One simple way to diagnose the issue is to identify where the transfer of motion is stopping. You firstly need to understand fully how keyless works operate. 

[Nucejoe]

Are equipped to show a close up vidio of the keyless as you wind. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Nucejoe
ARE YOU EQUIPPED

[cduke]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Are equipped to show a close up vidio of the keyless as you wind. 

It’s a terrible video but the best I could do with very limited equipment. Thanks

[cduke]

It looks like the stem is not turning the crown wheel pinion.

[rodabod]

The stem only turns the castle wheel (aka clutch wheel / sliding pinion). It’s important that you understand that first. 
 

Your issue is that the castle wheel is not engaging with the winding pinion. 
 

Check that the return bar (aka yoke) is able to freely push the castle wheel towards the winding pinion in order to make them engage when in the winding position. Also check that the winding pinion has freedom to turn in one direction (it will be under load as it effectively winds the mainspring). 

[rodabod]

This may help. Unfortunately there are many terms for the same parts:

 

[Nucejoe]

i

30 minutes ago, cduke said:

It’s a terrible video but the best I could do with very limited equipment. Thanks

IMG_0722.MOV

Video shows a bit and disappears in a hurry, weak spotty internet all day. will try seeing it and get back with you. Just the short time it did show sounded like a wheel discharges the power, perhaps the second wheel.

[Nucejoe]

1 minute ago, Nucejoe said:

i

Video shows a bit and disappears in a hurry, weak spotty internet all day. will try seeing it and get back with you. Just the short time it did show sounded like a wheel discharges the power, perhaps the second wheel.

I am sure rodabod spotted the fault, I too will put my two cents in upon seeing the vid.

[rodabod]

Another problem that I can see is that the setting lever spring (jumper or detent) is not engaging correctly with the stud on the setting lever. This is what gives the keyless works it’s “positive action” ie. the feeling that it is absolutely in either winding or setting mode. What you have is a bit like a sloppy gearbox. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by rodabod

[Nucejoe]

Based on rodabid's observation, I say loosen the two screws holding the minute train, see if that sets sliding pinion free to push on crown pinion, the two should engage so it wont jump pinion gears.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Nucejoe
SET SPRING SHOULD LOCK SET LEVER IN WHATEVER POSITION YOU PUT THE STEM IN.

[rodabod]

Have a look at the attached photo. Red dot is immediately next to the setting lever stud. The setting lever spring / detent is highlighted in blue. The stud is intended to rest on either side of the triangular-shaped detent. If the detent is sitting on top of the stud, then carefully push it over using tweezers or peg wood. 

[Nucejoe]

2 minutes ago, rodabod said:

Have a look at the attached photo. Red dot is immediately next to the setting lever stud. The setting lever spring / detent is highlighted in blue. The stud is intended to rest on either side of the triangular-shaped detent. If the detent is sitting on top of the stud, then carefully push it over using tweezers or peg wood. 

yep, set spring is on top of the stud in the picture, shoukd be level with the lever and lock it in set position.

[Nucejoe]

You need a new bridge for the minute train, might be listed as set spring, if you straigthen this one it will soon break.

[rodabod]

27 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

You need a new bridge for the minute train, might be listed as set spring, if you straigthen this one it will soon break.

I don’t think you can fairly make that assumption just from a photo. I think it’s more likely it just hasn’t been assembled correctly. 

[cduke]

2 minutes ago, rodabod said:

I don’t think you can fairly make that assumption just from a photo. I think it’s more likely it just hasn’t been assembled correctly. 

I think I corrected this problem. I will post a video to show. The stud now moves to either side of the detent. I am going to start with a new stem since that is the least expensive and least disruptive repair path.

thanks

[Nucejoe]

10 minutes ago, rodabod said:

I don’t think you can fairly make that assumption just from a photo. I think it’s more likely it just hasn’t been assembled correctly. 

See how bent the fork on set spring is!  picture one.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Nucejoe
You are right, I need new glasses

[Nucejoe]

Sorry Rodabod, you are right, off to my optrician.

[rodabod]

46 minutes ago, cduke said:

I think I corrected this problem. I will post a video to show. The stud now moves to either side of the detent. I am going to start with a new stem since that is the least expensive and least disruptive repair path.

thanks

That stem looks ok to me, judging by the photo. I can see a small amount of wear to the square section, but that shouldn’t be a problem as long as the castle wheel (clutch / sliding pinion....) can slide easily on it. 

[cduke]

50 minutes ago, rodabod said:

That stem looks ok to me, judging by the photo. I can see a small amount of wear to the square section, but that shouldn’t be a problem as long as the castle wheel (clutch / sliding pinion....) can slide easily on it. 

I took the keyless works apart and I think the yoke spring was not putting enough pressure on the sliding pinion.

[rodabod]

Hi, it’s possible that the spring has lost some of its tension. However, that movement looks filthy and I would clean it before making a final assessment. 
I’m sure you already know, but that’s a high grade movement and should be highly respected!

[cduke]

8 minutes ago, rodabod said:

Hi, it’s possible that the spring has lost some of its tension. However, that movement looks filthy and I would clean it before making a final assessment. 
I’m sure you already know, but that’s a high grade movement and should be highly respected!

You were absolutely right about the keyless works not being assembled properly.  After I put the yoke, yoke spring and bridge back in place,  winds like a champ!  Yes it really is a beauty which is why I was hesitant to get into the keyless works. I purchased it recently not working and did not realize how wonderful this movement was until it arrived. I only knew the watch maker as extremely fine quality.

thank you all for your wise and solicited advice!

[MrRoundel]

It's a very nice movement. I recently helped a friend acquire a V&C that was a different caliber (1002), and was about the same size. I believe it was here on this MB that somebody mentioned that the C1003 like yours has a rather tricky barrel design. I believe they called it a "suspended barrel".  So if you don't need to replace the mainspring, I wouldn't mess with it. . V&C does make beautiful, and very high quality, movements. Good luck with it. Cheers.

[cduke]

32 minutes ago, MrRoundel said:

It's a very nice movement. I recently helped a friend acquire a V&C that was a different caliber (1002), and was about the same size. I believe it was here on this MB that somebody mentioned that the C1003 like yours has a rather tricky barrel design. I believe they called it a "suspended barrel".  So if you don't need to replace the mainspring, I wouldn't mess with it. . V&C does make beautiful, and very high quality, movements. Good luck with it. Cheers.

Thanks !

The mainspring seems fine and I only recently discovered that as I could not wind it.  There are still a few issues with this movement but it is really an amazing thing to behold in watchmaking. The thinness of the movement is almost unbelievable and it is therefore extremely delicate.