Best Watchmaking Qualifications

[TomCrono]

So I'm looking to get certification as a professional watchmaker, looking for advice from anyone who already is or knows about this subject.

I've been working assembling watches for the past year.  I'm quite familiar with diagnosing problems, replacing parts and the watch assembly process.
My experience of servicing movements is extremely limited but I'm familiar with the process and confident to do so.

Should I just continue my working experience and try to find movements to practice servicing or is it a must to have a qualification to seriously pursue this as a career?

[jdm]

30 minutes ago, TomCrono said:

So I'm looking to get certification as a professional watchmaker, looking for advice from anyone who already is or knows about this subject.

Discussed various times already, please search. And which country are you from? If the UK, NHI offers long and costly distance learning with exams in person. That school is not as you may expect becuase for the firts two years or so you are only taught to file straight.

If you want to learn quiacky to get on your way to be a professional I recommend that you enroll in our host Mark Lovick training at watchrepairlessons.com, and practice, practice, practice.

Edited August 16, 2020 by jdm

[VWatchie]

I'm just an enthusiast but I'll share my thoughts on this anyway. If you're looking for employment I believe a certificate would be very helpful if not a requirement. I haven't researched the topic too much but I think Googling "wostep watchmaking school" could provide some interesting reading.

If want to start your own business it will of course be more a matter of building customer relations and trust in your own work. That will of course be very hard work and time consuming and perhaps something to pursue after a few years as an employee, which will also provide valuable contacts in the business. However, be aware that as an independent watchmaker it will sometimes be very difficult and sometimes even impossible to source spare parts as the brands for the last 35 years have been increasingly restricting the supply of spare parts with the goal of killing off the independent repair trade. It's a very sad situation.

Anyway, best of luck with your endeavours becoming a watchmaker, and remember, "where there is a will there is a way"!

Edited August 16, 2020 by VWatchie

[AdamC]

Hi Tom,

I’ve been toying with a similar dilemma. I work in a well paid but highly stressful job, though I’m moving towards the latter end of my career. My escapism from the stresses of the day job is to restore vintage watches, and I’ve been practicing for about three years now. I’ve taken Level 1 and 2 of Mark’s watch repair courses, and this has helped improve my techniques and skills confidence. I’m onto the 3rd level now. I think this is a great place to start and will provide certificates of achievement (a measurement of your knowledge). But some time ago I reached out to Mark regarding taking the British Horological Institute (BHI) courses and professional exams, and considering whether to do the distance learning course or the hands-on workshop tutor led course. He highly recommended the hands-on course, and since for me, the BHI course centre (Upton Hall) is less than an hour away, it makes sense all round - except for now of course, while all onsite courses are cancelled due to the pandemic! I joined the BHI as an associate member two years ago - worth it for the horological journals they publish monthly.

So in my opinion, to provide assurance to your future customers, I would recommend you get professionally qualified. I sell my successful projects on ebay for next to no profit, and I’ve had a few people contact me to ask whether I’d repair/service their watches. I have always declined because I describe myself as an enthusiastic hobbyist, and nothing more.

I take on some more advanced projects now that I have built my confidence and tools set up, including escapement work (refitting balance staffs etc.). Would love to get a lathe to learn those skills too.

Obviously, it depends which part of the world you live in as I know there are equally good organisations to get professionally trained in the US for example. As mentioned, the BHI does distance learning courses for students worldwide as another option to get professionally qualified.

To wrap up this lengthy reply, I guess we amateurs need to ask ourselves your question from a customer’s perspective. If I had a prestige sports car worth £50,000, would I take it to “Mick’s Motors” who has a back street garage where he practices motor repairs at the weekends and is unqualified or should I take it to the main dealers who are trained (hopefully!) and guarantee their work? The same would apply to an expensive/treasured timepiece!

Hope that helps? It would be interesting to hear from those who are qualified for an insight into whether they have found it a rewarding career and whether it can be very stressful at times. Pros and cons and insurance advice to protect against inadvertent damage (it has to happen to professionals right?).


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[JohnR725]

I found you a few links you can do some reading.

Unfortunately no simple answers here? A lot of it depends upon what you want to do. For instance you're working on vintage American Watches a certificate is a waste of time it won't help you with anything. On the other hand if you want to do modern watches Want to get spare parts you're not going to get the spare parts unless you have a certificate. But even that's not clear-cut some of the companies will still require you to take their class with their test and get a certain score or else. Oh and for spare parts even if you complete the test and all of that is still need to buy a heck of a lot of expensive tools because expensive tools indicate that your qualified professional person.

But If you just want to walk in and take a exam except you can't walk in you have to look at the schedule when the exams are given I believe both the BHI and AWCI have exams you could take.

 Then the other two lengths wostep and sawta These are basically schools and if you want to complete their tests and have one other certificates you really should take their classes.

http://www.wostep.ch/en

https://www.awci.com/

https://bhi.co.uk/

http://www.sawtacertification.org/

Then we have things like this a wostep school with a one year program versus the normal two-year program. Also the programs interesting in that is free tuition free the only need to buy a few tools for about $3000. That tells a little about the skill set you going to learn and become a technician and it does mention something about swapping movements I'm not sure is a technician with your authorized actually disassemble a movement.

http://www.nghayekwatchmakingschool.org/The-Schools/miami/Schooling-Programm.aspx

 

 

 

 

 

[jdm]

15 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately no simple answers here? A lot of it depends upon what you want to do. For instance you're working on vintage American Watches a certificate is a waste of time it won't help you with anything.

Well, I assume that the good schools you listed above all teach lathe and milling work to make new parts, which can be invaluable for either vintage or current watches, plus specialized knowledge and techniques, in the end that is the difference between a repairer (or a jobber to use an old American term) and a watchmaker.

[VWatchie]

4 hours ago, jdm said:

Discussed various times already, please search.

Personally I don't care much for this type of exhortation which, moreover, can be perceived as condescending and not very friendly, even if it's not your intention. It could intimidate members, especially new members, and result in refraining from asking and writing. I give you that the question have been discussed and answered many, many times on the Internet, but the world is ever changing and there may very well be new information today that wasn't available yesterday. Also, and that's perhaps the most important aspect, the question from the OP made @AdamC write a personal, informative and interesting post in reply to it, and it made @JohnR725 provide some aspects that may not be obvious to everyone (certainly not me) in addition to some interesting and useful links. Without the OP's question I'm not sure any of those posts would have seen the day.

[jdm]

8 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

 I give you that the question have been discussed and answered many, many times on the Internet, but the world is ever changing and there may very well be new information today that wasn't available yesterday. 

By now we all know that you're an opponent of searching before asking, and if we had a FAQ (which we haven't) you would be incensed at only naming it .

To make your  and OP's education easier here's few links from previous threads about the topic at hand. Perhaps some useful crumble of information is in there, despite the world changing and new schools opening every day.

Feel free to come back with more polished aggressiveness if that makes you feel better  but forgive me if it will be you having to conclude with empty bickering.

 

 

[VWatchie]

56 minutes ago, jdm said:

Feel free to come back with more polished aggressiveness if that makes you feel better 

Thanks, and I just might, when and if I feel it is called for!  Thank you for the idea for my new title!

Edited August 16, 2020 by VWatchie

[clockboy]

In the UK I would have thought the BHI would be best if you are intending to service high end watches or go pro.If you intend to become a competent amateur then Marks course is perfect.  However making a living from Horology is now tough because for many customers their vintage watches & clocks the repairs/servicing costs are more than their value. Apart from sentimental reasons many just decide to either sell them or just discard them. Most now look at there mobile if they wish to know the time. 

[JohnR725]

I find this interesting timing this morning? I was searching for something else in my horological folder of downloads stumbled across this PDF. The PDF title is educational opportunities. Seeing as how I had zero idea how or why I acquired the document I did a search I found the link where it came from that's attached down below. So if you're in the UK names to cover quite a few opportunities.

http://www.clockmakers.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/A-Helping-Hand-for-Students-56-Version-4.pdf

 

 

[VWatchie]

Thanks John! Very well written PDF with lots of info I haven't come across before.

BTW, for those of you who live in the Scandinavian countries you may want to consider www.urmakarskolan.se, a 3000-hour WOSTEP program. The school accepts students resident in Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, and Island. If I had the possibility I wouldn't hesitate to apply, but unfortunately it would simply be too cumbersome for my wife, kids, and myself as it would be a 6 hour commute by car.

Edited August 16, 2020 by VWatchie

[TomCrono]

Wow!  I love the community on the forum here, always excellent information.  Thank you for all you replies, especially @VWatchie@jdm@JohnR725@AdamC.  It's great to hear all your experiences, points of view and passion for this subject. Thanks for making me feel so welcome here too.

I do think JDM is a bit right, possibly I could have searched firstly, thanks very much for the links.  Anyway hopefully some new things have been brought up in this post.

The business I'm working for is based in Hong Kong, but I'm from the UK, so the HSI course does seem the most attractive to me, but I'll be sure to take a good look at the other options.  The Wostep free course @JohnR725 mentioned sounds very interesting, hopefully I can collect all the correct tools to do so.

So I was given access to Mark's course when I first began, which was fantastic, and that has basically been my training for this job, the rest has been pretty much self learnt.  I've assembled over 1500 watches over the past year but my work on movements is very limited to just replacing defective parts or if someone has broken something in the office etc.  So I'm only working on modern movements, I have the freedom to do what I want to the extent of how busy I am.  I have now collected all the things together to service but I'm still unsure a little about the cleaning process beforehand (perhaps for another post).

Thanks again guys, really appreciate all your replies.

 

[Klassiker]

32 minutes ago, TomCrono said:

 I've assembled over 1500 watches over the past year

That is more than a lot of entire watch companies do!

What about your employer, is there no chance to increase your range of activities and experience within the company? Maybe they have contacts to the schools in Hong Kong (there must be some surely?) and would support you? If attendance isn't an option, then the BHI correspondence courses seem like a good option. They are widely recognised in the profession, which is important.

You can also look at this link which is a good compilation:

https://www.great-british-watch.co.uk/watchmaker-training-and-education-how-to-become-a-watchmaker/#outside-uk

 

[jdm]

2 hours ago, TomCrono said:

The business I'm working for is based in Hong Kong, but I'm from the UK, so the HSI course does seem the most attractive to me, but I'll be sure to take a good look at the other options.  

Working for an HK company is a great start, if you could relocate there for 2 years, your company could provide at least the introductuon letter for HKIOSW, the total cost of HKD 60,000 is within reason, and the certification a top one. 

https://www.iosw.com/en/school-hong-kong-3

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, TomCrono said:

The business I'm working for is based in Hong Kong,

 

If you study did the wostep website you would've noticed this link?

http://www.wostep.ch/en/ecoles-partenaires/nicolas-g-hayek-watchmaking-school-hong-kong

You will notice there the same group as the people running the school in Florida.

http://www.nghayekwatchmakingschool.org/Home.aspx

I have another link notice they teach both the 3000 hour course and the technician course the same as the one in Florida. Also notice that other than your living expenses and food is your problem but no fee is charged for the course.

http://www.nghayekwatchmakingschool.org/The-Schools/Hong-Kong/General-Information.aspx

The wording on the website is interesting it's open to Hong Kong citizens and international students so would that make you an international student or a Hong Kong citizen as you're already living there? Unfortunately you can't do your day job and go to school as there isn't enough time in the day to do both. But maybe could take a break for your job for a year

Now to add to the confusion of things? So here's possibly a confusion the school above associate with the Florida school's tuition free schools are teaching the wostep program and are sponsored by Swatch group.

Then down below we have two schools that are teaching the SAWTA Program

Let's look at the first school instead of teaching that 3000 hour wostep course they teaching  3600+ Hours

If you look at the fine print its tuition free you just have to purchase a few tools at 7000's. Oh and in case you think can bring in your own tools know you have to buy their toolkits.. On their school application form they can download there is a reference to you have to have the proof that you have the ability to work in the United States and you intend on doing so upon comparative of the course?

https://lititzwatchtechnicum.org/

 

Then there's the other school teaching the program

https://northseattle.edu/programs/watch-technology-institute

If you read carefully both of these schools are teaching of the Rolex sponsored Two-year SAWTA Program although North Seattle at least on the website makes a reference to wostep and I don't know if they're actually doing that anymore. They used to get certificates from both schools with the opportunity of also awci would come and give their certification so conceivably that end up with all three.

Unfortunately not remembering something that's really vital for this discussion. Somebody asked me the cost of going to North Seattle with the tools and I asked David one of the instructors and he gave an answer which I can't remember unfortunately. On the website all a dimension is the $5000 a tools for which Rolex is partially funding that. If you leave early you have to give back to staking the set because they ended up purchasing bats and including it in the kit and that armor but the cost PICkit price doesn't cover the costs the staking set the seller basically giving it to you.

The reason I'm bringing this up is tuition free what's the catch? The North Seattle school you pay for your tuition but you get out early on Friday and if you're lucky you might have a job out there and watch repair. You can also work over the weekend so a lot of the students have jobs outside of the school which is nice it helps pay the cost of living. But I'm not seeing it on the website of the first school I think you required to work for them for a while or you may work they are in your off hours of just not seeing. So you do need to be careful on tuition free whether there is perhaps a catch. There may not be with the Swatch group technician program because they're in desperate need of technicians. But just something to remember that tuition free doesn't always mean free.

But seeing as how you have a school in the same city that your EN you should go and visit them or at least call him up. Considering the small quantity of watch schools scattered across the planet the chances of living in a city that has a school is very very small and it be a shame to not make use of it.

 

 

 

 

 

[rodabod]

I think any qualification is a good thing to have, and will be attractive to an employer if that's how you wish to work. I have a BHI diploma and the certificate makes no difference to me (I don't have an employer, and I rarely tell customers about my accreditation). However, what it does give you is a huge amount of knowledge and skills. Experience alone is great, but sometimes it does help to see how a well-respected authority believes how to do things properly.

Another thing which is worth thinking about is what sort of watchmaker you wish to be. There does seem to be two camps: those who simply repair watches and swap out defective parts, and those who take an interest in the finer details of how watches work (the theory) and practical part making / tool making / repairing. If you don't like technical theory then some courses may come across slightly "dry". But I find it fascinating.

[TomCrono]

 

 

Yes I did try to contact the nghayekwatchmakingschool before via e-mail but didn't receive a response.  I've tried a different avenue they have online and I'll follow it up with a visit or a phone call as you suggested, thanks for the suggestion.

The problem is I'm quite critical to the assembly process as my company is just a start up and not a well established watchmaking company.  There is just a team of two of us, basically, which assemble, QC check and send the watches.  We don't do any services (yet) and only very basic repairs.  The amount of tools I have available may not fully cover what is required for some of the courses.  But I'm going to try to pitch to them to support me to do this to further the company, which I guess is going to be difficult.

The positives are I'm a HK ID card holder but not a permanent resident, but my spouse is and I am staying here indefinitely (eventually i'll become a HK citizen).  But with the political situation who knows what will happen, but life goes on.

 

On 8/19/2020 at 1:47 AM, JohnR725 said:

Considering the small quantity of watch schools scattered across the planet the chances of living in a city that has a school is very very small and it be a shame to not make use of it.

As far as the SAWTA Program goes - 3600,3000 hours... wow that is quite a commitment.  $7000 dollars of equipment - it all sounds quite awkward to me, and slightly complicated.

 

On 8/19/2020 at 1:35 AM, jdm said:

Working for an HK company is a great start, if you could relocate there for 2 years, your company could provide at least the introductuon letter for HKIOSW, the total cost of HKD 60,000 is within reason, and the certification a top one. 

Thanks a lot for the suggestion.  Actually it appears the course is WOSTEP like the nghayekwatchmakingschool, which is slightly confusing.  But comparing the cost of HKD 60,000 (Around £6k) and $7000 worth of Equipment in the SAWTA, it's basically the same I guess.

I feel like my company won't be willing to salary me while I take one of the two local courses and right now, as we're selling watches fine and I'm still developing my skills independently. From my own point of view I think it's going to be difficult to give up my salaried job, especially at this time in the world.

So the BHI course, which is broken into 3 parts, that I seem to be able to do at my own pace and work around my own schedule (do it on weekends/evenings or persuade the company to find some time allowance each week to put towards it) seems so much more viable right now.  This would require a visit to the UK to take an exam but I don't think it'll be a problem (eventually when the virus situation improves).

 

[TomCrono]

On 8/19/2020 at 5:28 AM, rodabod said:

I have a BHI diploma and the certificate makes no difference to me (I don't have an employer, and I rarely tell customers about my accreditation). However, what it does give you is a huge amount of knowledge and skills.

How do you guys think the BHI qualifications/diplomas measure up against the WOSTEP courses?

[JohnR725]

16 minutes ago, TomCrono said:

How do you guys think the BHI qualifications/diplomas measure up against the WOSTEP courses?

It really depends upon what you want  it for what you want to do with it? For instance you can print up a nifty certificate that you're a certified master watch something make up a university name or school name and who's Going to question it.. I know someone who repairers pocket watches online and I vaguely recall he said that no one is ever asked him what his certificate was  which he doesn't have.

The only time it really becomes importance there may be other times for those that think there's other times they'll tell us. But if you're trying to get watch parts then having a certificates that's recognized is good. The only problem is doesn't really matter because a lot of the brands will not supply you with parts no matter who gives you a certificates.

[TomCrono]

My motivation to gain the qualification is develop and expand my opportunities as an employed watchmaker/technician rather than working independently/self-employed. 

[JohnR725]

3 minutes ago, TomCrono said:

My motivation to gain the qualification is develop and expand my opportunities as an employed watchmaker/technician rather than working independently/self-employed

Then I will change your question to a slightly different new question which would go along the lines of this.. New question would be I would like to someday leave my job and seek employment as a watchmaker a professional watchmaker perhaps?  How can I do this without quitting My present job?  This means basically it opens up you can do the various online learning courses improve your skill set

Then the local school since you appear to have at least two of them conceivably more I wonder if they would have night classes

[rodabod]

6 hours ago, TomCrono said:

How do you guys think the BHI qualifications/diplomas measure up against the WOSTEP courses?

I haven't completed any WOSTEP courses, so can't comment.

What I will say though, is that the most important thing is the knowledge..... You could potentially acquire the BHI course material second hand and learn it without having to do the final accreditation in the UK. Occasionally the older versions of the course material appear for sale.

[JohnR725]

I was curious about something and on my way there I noticed this link  scholarship did not look at the specifications I do find the location of the person who could get the scholarship interesting?

http://www.wostep.ch/en/page/albert-hausammann-hong-kong-trust-sponsorship

Now for what I find interesting wostep what exactly does that mean anyway? Before anyone answer is yes I ask you know what the letters mean I think the first letter has to do with watch.  But  the history page you'll notice that over the years the course has changed  the requirements to take the various courses has changed but yet  if you took any of these courses and passed the test and whatever  you would have a wostep certificate that is very very widely excepted by anyone who knows anything about watches at least that is paying attention. But yes  it could conceivably mean multiple of things.  Whereas if you take the BHI course you get specific  pilot look lately but certain type of watch skill or clock scale where is this is more like a school you getting a school certificate but it could mean a lot of things except of course it is widely recognized. I just bring that up as a lot of times when people throw the terms around its  I just don't think most people grasped that it that conceivably if you had a reunion of students from the school that be at all different levels conceivably because of the various  how the classes were taught huge difference between the beginning and the end  but still widely recognized.

http://www.wostep.ch/en/history

 

 

 

[jdm]

20 hours ago, TomCrono said:

I feel like my company won't be willing to salary me while I take one of the two local courses and right now, as we're selling watches fine and I'm still developing my skills independently. From my own point of view I think it's going to be difficult to give up my salaried job, especially at this time in the world.

Please excuse if I'm venturing on commenting on your own work situation and perspective. I agree with all you wrote but I think it would be in the interest of your employer to consider than someone with talent and ambitions won't work at assembly watches forever, without being diminutive it's not highly skilled labor. So if you can come to an agreement where they company won't spend more but will have your commitment to work as skilled technician in the future while still working on any need in HK, that could get to a win/win situation. They can probably offset tuition fees on their tax balance.

Edited August 21, 2020 by jdm