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Universal Genève Cal. 262: What to expect?


Hoe

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Dear Watchmakers

Short time ago I bought an old Universal Genève watch containing Cal. 262. The watch was generally in a working condition, but the movement always stopped after a few seconds. So I was looking forward for an overhaul project.

After disassembling, cleaning and reassembling the movement now runs continuously, but the timegrapher shows an image I can’t live with.

I certainly do not expect COSC values, but is this timegrapher image acceptable for such an old movement? This would normally scream for an inspection/overhaul.

I could not find any damaged parts. Everything runs smoothly.

Best wishes

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Notice how your timing machine microphone has notches on the holder? You're supposed beholding the movement farther up rather than resting it where you have it. Also according to the link down below you have a subsecond spit one of the problems with resting the movement down is the subsecond bit shouldn't be pushing against anything besides upsetting the timing machine you risk bending that which is why the holder is meant the hold watches farther up.

Notice how your amplitude is 184°? The timing procedure would be to wind the watch up let it run about 15 minutes time at preferably dial-up and dial down and as it's a wristwatch crown down we need to see all of that. Fully wound up that number should be just a tiny bit higher like 250 heading towards 300°. Out of curiosity did you take the mainspring out and replace it or even clean it?

Then your grossly out of beat except until you get the amplitude up to 200° we can't tell because when you go past 200° problems get magnified considerably. Also did you demagnetized the watch?

 

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Universal_262

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1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Notice how your timing machine microphone has notches on the holder? You're supposed beholding the movement farther up rather than resting it where you have it.

I recommend that one places the mov,t in an holder instead that directly in the claws of the microphone. The spring is strong and having it jump out wouldn't be a nice surprise.

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57 minutes ago, jdm said:

spring is strong and having it jump out wouldn't be a nice surprise.

Even though I have the Chinese 1000 machine to play with I keep forgetting about his nasty killer spring. I'm not sure if I'd want to put an 18 size pocket watch in because if you were to ever let go of the spring it probably take a finger off If that was in the way. It's a shame they didn't copy the witschi microphones but they're considerably more complicated inside. They have a really nice even pressure plus the jaws are just slightly bigger you can hold a 36 size watch.

But in any case you do want to get it up off the base especially with little seconds shaft sticking down because it's really easy to have accidents and break that off. Even if you know what you're doing it's all too easy to have an accident and I'll skip over how I know about that one.

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8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Even though I have the Chinese 1000 machine to play with I keep forgetting about his nasty killer spring. I'm not sure if I'd want to put an 18 size pocket watch in because if you were to ever let go of the spring it probably take a finger off If that was in the way. It's a shame they didn't copy the witschi microphones but they're considerably more complicated inside. They have a really nice even pressure plus the jaws are just slightly bigger you can hold a 36 size watch.

But in any case you do want to get it up off the base especially with little seconds shaft sticking down because it's really easy to have accidents and break that off. Even if you know what you're doing it's all too easy to have an accident and I'll skip over how I know about that one.

Same issue I have the 1900 which has that naughty spring as well. As a precaution I have the holder sitting on a large duster to soften the blow if it drops out.

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1 hour ago, clockboy said:

Same issue I have the 1900 which has that naughty spring as well. As a precaution I have the holder sitting on a large duster to soften the blow if it drops out.

They make a dust cover for that mike specifically but I think is very overpriced for something easily made.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/dust-cover-for-use-with-witschi-microphone?code=T52813

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I think the slot cut in the base of that particular holder will prevent you from fouling the subseconds pivot in that particular position. 
 

The continuous change of rate suggests to me that you may have uneven delivery of torque. That assumes that it continues to change when the watch is left in that position to settle down. The same can happen with A hairspring which isn’t vibrating consistently due to magnetism/sticking/fouling, but looking at your trace, my first guess would be friction in the train. 
 

So, if this were my watch, I’d firstly do the billy-basics and check that the train runs freely with the pallets removed. What this test does not show you is of the train continues to run freely when under load. That seems to escape a lot of people. Under load, the side-thrust changes the orientation of the wheels and can lead to unwanted friction. Most common place for this to occur is between the barrel and centre wheel. So check the side-shake of the barrel and centre wheel - it’s sometimes easier to do this with the pallets installed as it allows you to gently push the barrel (or centre wheel) back and forth which usually reveals side-shake quite obviously. 
 

Things I would try to avoid assuming, although ultimately you may need to try many things:

- That the beat error is the cause. 
- That the mainspring is set. 

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Thank you all for the feedback.

I should have noticed it myself that I positioned the movement the “not ideal” way on the timegrapher. Normally I place complete watches on it…

Energy from the main spring doesn’t seem to reach the balance. The balance slows down and finally stops when I change the movement’s position on the timegrapher despite being fully wound. So nothing has changed since the overhaul.

I tend to see the problem in the main spring barrel area, too, although I also disassembled it together with the rest. The gear train seems to be fine and spins smoothly when the pallet fork is removed, but I will have a look at it again.

Yes, I demagnetised the movement, but that didn’t help.

What I have not done: I didn’t put the main spring barrel and its cover into the cleaning machine. Recently, I damaged the coating of a barrel from another very old watch. To prevent this, I inspected and cleaned it manually... tooth by tooth. The barrel arbour and the main spring were included in the cleaning machine process. I use ELMA Red 1:9 and F45 for cleaning.

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1 hour ago, Hoe said:

Energy from the main spring doesn’t seem to reach the balance. The balance slows down and finally stops when I change the movement’s position on the timegrapher despite being fully wound. So nothing has changed since the overhaul.

The balance stops entirely? Which orientation(s) causes it to stop?

You should carefully check your balance end-shake if you have not done already. You need to be careful when doing this as this watch does not have an antishock jewel setting. Apologies if this is stuff which you already have experience with. 

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Dose it slow down as you change movements position, from any position to any other? 

Do you feel any end shake? if too much, it may let the roller rub on the fork horn in face down position or HS on balance spokes or the cock. Excess side shake may let the guard pin rub on the roller table.

Did you peg all jewels? check all shakes? 

Drop a bit of lighter fluid on jewels to the escape( this will temporarily act as lubricant), couple of minutes later do the same with fork jewels and finally balance jewel. if no good then apply some naphta on escape teeth. if you see no diference the issue is not one of dirt or lube.

 

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2 hours ago, Hoe said:

What I have not done: I didn’t put the main spring barrel and its cover into the cleaning machine. Recently, I damaged the coating of a barrel from another very old watch. To prevent this, I inspected and cleaned it manually... tooth by tooth. The barrel arbour and the main spring were included in the cleaning machine process. I use ELMA Red 1:9 and F45 for cleaning

How long do you leave the watch in the ELMA Red 1:9 Solution and do you heat the solution?

Then lubrication types wordy apply it etc.? Also the mainspring what it look like?

2 hours ago, Hoe said:

So nothing has changed since the overhaul.

Actually something has changed since the overhaul? Normally in watch repair you want to nail down your problems before you clean the watch. Then it's usually best to assume that cleaning doesn't fix all problems. If the problem is the watch needs to be cleaned yes it will fix that but if you had other problems that you're not detecting cleaning won't fix those.

22 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Drop a bit of lighter fluid on jewels to the escape( this will temporarily act as lubricant), couple of minutes later do the same with fork jewels and finally balance jewel. if no good then apply some naphta on escape teeth. if you see no diference the issue is not one of dirt or lube.

If before you clean the watch because you assume the watch has a cleaning problem issue you could follow the above steps I use a different fluid but apply a fluid to the dirty watch and see if it runs better or runs at all. Then if everything seems fine and really is a cleaning problem you can clean the watch and everything will be fine hopefully.

1 hour ago, rodabod said:

The balance stops entirely? Which orientation(s) causes it to stop?

You should carefully check your balance end-shake if you have not done already. You need to be careful when doing this as this watch does not have an antishock jewel setting. Apologies if this is stuff which you already have experience with.

 

2 hours ago, Hoe said:

Energy from the main spring doesn’t seem to reach the balance. The balance slows down and finally stops when I change the movement’s position on the timegrapher despite being fully wound. So nothing has changed since the overhaul.

 

I tend to see the problem in the main spring barrel area, too, although I also disassembled it together with the rest. The gear train seems to be fine and spins smoothly when the pallet fork is removed, but I will have a look at it again.

We have an interesting problem here it could be the mainspring issue you getting almost 0 power to the balance wheel. The amount of power you getting is so insanely low that as soon as you change from a position like the Dial down to one of the crown positions it just totally runs out of energy and dies so yes it could be the mainspring.

But it could just as easily be on the other end the balance wheel. If you balance Wheel is having issue Like pivot issues. Or even if The hairspring is touching the balance arms it's amazing how much energy you lose if they hairspring is touching something it's not supposed to.

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If you suspect low torque from the barrel, you can add manual power to the train at the barrel or any wheel you got access to,  just grab the spoke of center wheel and gently  assisst it turning.  It will quite cooperating if you push hard.

I always remove the end stones to check and clean the underneath, rinse lube and screw back on( always soak the cock assembly overnight so the two little screws unscrew easier and you eliminate the risk of ruining em.

 +140s/d might indicate only ocasional intermitant touching of HS.

 

 

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Thanks again for your advices. Nice to read some new tips. I try to answer the questions here and give an update.

When I received the watch, it had the same symptoms:

It ran for a few minutes in dial up position, but stopped in any other position after seconds. The watch has certainly seen better days according to the signs of usage on its case. But this in my opinion doesn’t necessarily apply to the movement. Initially, there were lots of older lubricants inside, but not on the parts that are essential for a running function. After the cleaning, everything looked visibly healthier and I was hoping an unseen dirt source would have been eliminated.

My cleaning process:

In the first glass of the Elma cleaning machine I use Elma 1:9 mixed with water for about 2 min, afterwards F45 for 2x 2 min. No heating of the fluids, heating is used at the end to dry the parts. So far, this method worked on several movements. No ultrasonic treatment.

Lubrication:

I use Mobuis 9010 and HP1300.

But I really think it is a mechanical problem.

What I have done in the meantime:

Cleaned the pallet fork and escape wheel and reinstalled them without lubrication to check, if my oiling was a problem: This was not the case.

Removed all the gears and the cannon pinion but left the centre wheel and the mainspring barrel installed to check, if friction may cause a loss of energy (as suggested my rodabod): Hmm, loosening the barrel bridge’s screws let the gear spin much smoother with less manual torque applied to the barrel. After reinstalling all the gears but with a loose barrel bridge the movement runs slightly better but it is still very weak and sensitive to positional changes. At least, it doesn’t stop anymore. Is the mainspring barrel being too much pushed together by be main plate and the bridge?

Inspected the balance wheel’s play (as suggested by Nucejoe): It is hard to tell for me what is too much or too little. If I WANT to see it and in the right light I can explore small, circular scratches on the pallet fork cock possibly from the balance wheel! The dots on the timegrapher probably point into the direction of a touching balance wheel. But does this speak for the general weakness of the movement?

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That balance wheel rim does look awfully close to the pallet cock. Are you sure it doesn’t foul at any point?

Its hard to describe how much end-shake is correct, but if you carefully move the balance wheel rim up and down, it will barely move - say for example 1/4 of the thickness of the balance rim as a very vague example (there are many variables which affect how much end-shake is normal, so it’s hard to quantify). 
 

I presume you have inspected both balance pivots? The pivots will most often look the same length. 

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End shake on staff is ideally .01 to .02 mm.  To test for lack of end shake, loosening cock screw like you did is enough, you would notice the oscilator set free to turn.

You have an issue at the barrel though,

Check, if barrel rubs on the bridge, barrel lid should drop in barrel and sit flush level with barrel wall, not push on mainspring ?  worn holes in barrel or its lid or bent bridge, worn barrel arbour.  Is this a fresh mainspring? old one might be dead.

Goid luck

 

 

              

            

Edited by Nucejoe
press MS all the way down inside the barrel.
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42 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Check, if barrel rubs on the bridge, barrel lid should drop in barrel and sit flush level with barrel wall, not push on mainspring ?  worn holes in barrel or its lid or bent bridge, worn barrel arbour.  Is this a fresh mainspring? old one might be dead.

All of above are excellent points. Your mainspring appears to be the original mainspring it's a blued steel spring. On the modern White Springs you can get by without lubrication either because they have an invisible lubrication or because the steel itself doesn't need lubrication. But this is a blued steel spring some lubrication is required.

When I look at the timing machine I still see what looks like power fluctuations Which unfortunately could come from a whole variety of things all the way for the mainspring to the balance wheel. If you manually rotate the balance wheel all the way until the roller jewel touches the fork on the backside and you let go how long does it take for the balance wheel to come to stop swinging back and forth?

Then it does not appear that this watch has a jewel for the center wheel you want to look really carefully at the hot. Seeing as how that's the wheel driven by the mainspring that's the most likely place you could have a out around whole which would cause issues.

1 hour ago, Hoe said:

Inspected the balance wheel’s play (as suggested by Nucejoe): It is hard to tell for me what is too much or too little. If I WANT to see it and in the right light I can explore small, circular scratches on the pallet fork cock possibly from the balance wheel! The dots on the timegrapher probably point into the direction of a touching balance wheel. But does this speak for the general weakness of the movement?

The scratches on the pallet fork bridge look like sloppy watch work. But if you see anything that looks like the balance wheel was rubbing that is 100% unacceptable. One of the features unfortunately missing from that timing machine is the ability to listen to the watch ticking. Hold the watch up to your ear and listen to it really carefully and see if you hear anything beyond ticking noises like you actually hear it scraping or rubbing your hitting her bumping. Which would be so much nicer if the timing machine actually had audio.

On the other hand was rubbing on the pallet fork bridge and turn it upside down that problem should go away.

 

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