Omega 30 t2 pc - balance wheel stuck

[Khan]

Hi

I earlier had an issue with a bent hairspring, so I replaced the hair spring from an Omega 200-series, a cal. 268, since Bidfun says these are in the same generation. But when I install the balance, it only turn in one direction. The stone below balance, which moves by pallet fork, seems stuck on one side of the fork during placing, even if I have attempted dozens of times. The balance itself runs freely when laying upside down on the table or when installed without pallet fork. Any help appreciated.

[clockboy]

I suspect it is a mile out of beat. I sugest you remove the balance & the pallet folk & re-install the balance & check where the impulse jewel is in relation to the banking pins. It should settle in the middle when it stops oscillating. 

[Nucejoe]

Mark has a video on youtube teaching this, Google;

How to align a hairspring so the watch is in beat. 

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Khan said:

 But when I install the balance, it only turn in one direction. The stone below balance, which moves by pallet fork, seems stuck on one side of the fork during placing, even if I have attempted dozens of times.

The simpler explanation is that you're installing with the impulse pin outside of the horns. Depending on the mov't you can actually see if that is the case.
When it happens like that, leave the cock screw lose, and lift the balance so slightly that it can fell within the horns. Assuming there is at least some power it will start beating right away.
Just a passing note, it is said impulse jewel that makes the pallet move, not vice-versa.

Edited August 10, 2020 by jdm

[nickelsilver]

The roller table looks to be out of position, the roller jewel is normally at 90 degrees to the arms. Add to that the hairspring is likely not correctly positioned I agree that you are way out of beat.

[jdm]

3 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The roller table looks to be out of position, the roller jewel is normally at 90 degrees to the arms. Add to that the hairspring is likely not correctly positioned I agree that you are way out of beat.

Right. But looking at the mov't picture from Ranfft's, the pallet sits inline with the cock screw and the balance. And in the OP picture the impulse jewel is inline with the same said reference points. That should make so that the jewel is in the proper position are when the balance in installed, and the watch should at least run anyway.
 

[nickelsilver]

5 minutes ago, jdm said:

Right. But looking at the mov't picture from Ranfft's, the pallet sits inline with the cock screw and the balance. And in the OP picture the impulse jewel is inline with the same said reference points. That should make so that the jewel is in the proper position are when the balance in installed, and the watch should at least run anyway.
 

Hmm so OP probably put the new spring fairly close to where the old one was, but the roller is still out of place. When the balance is at rest, with the fork engaged with the roller, fork between the bankings, the balance arms should be perpendicular to a line drawn from escape jewel to balance jewel. They should really realign the roller, then get the hairspring oriented correctly.

[Marc]

40 minutes ago, jdm said:

Just a passing note, it is said impulse jewel that makes the pallet move, not vice-versa.

Not strictly correct.

It is indeed the impulse jewel that knocks the pallet out of lock, however once the escape wheel tooth is sliding down the impulse face of the pallet stone it is the pallet that is accelerating the impulse jewel. So both pallet and impulse jewel take it in turns to make each other move.

[jdm]

 

Just now, Marc said:

It is indeed the impulse jewel that knocks the pallet out of lock,

To highlight that sequence of events I wrote "makes the pallet move", meaning "initiates the movement of the pallet". Of course the pallet also transmits significant power to the impulse jewel and certain parameters can be optimized for a nicely "self starting" mov't, but all that I've omitted for the simplicity of discussion.

2 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

. When the balance is at rest, with the fork engaged with the roller, fork between the bankings, the balance arms should be perpendicular to a line drawn from escape jewel to balance jewel. 

I  have been searching on (digital) old texts about the importance of this, but haven't found anything so far. 
Intuitively it seems to me that with a perfectly poised balance there should be no difference in performances no matter how they sit, but likely there something that escapes me?
Not to say that it would be acceptable for a factory or repairer to assemble in a inconsistent manner, and before considering that three and four spokes balances also exist.

[nickelsilver]

 
I  have been searching on (digital) old texts about the importance of this, but haven't found anything so far. 
Intuitively it seems to me that with a perfectly poised balance there should be no difference in performances no matter how they sit, but likely there something that escapes me?
Not to say that it would be acceptable for a factory or repairer to assemble in a inconsistent manner, and before considering that three and four spokes balances also exist.

The standard is with the roller centered with the arms, it the most aesthetically pleasing, also means the arms are not obscuring the fork when setting up the escapement, and makes visually checking the amplitude easy.

As the roller is not poised, it does have an effect on the balance poise. So balances are always poised with the roller in place. For fun, reverse the position of roller and hairspring 180 degrees on a watch with a good rate in the vertical positions. It goes way out.

On 3 arm balances it can really be anywhere. If in doubt after replacing a staff, bet on placing the roller jewel opposite where metal was removed to poise the balance.

[HSL]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

The standard is with the roller centered with the arms, it the most aesthetically pleasing, also means the arms are not obscuring the fork when setting up the escapement, and makes visually checking the amplitude easy.

This is probably exactly how they are setup with these Omegas too.
I use to take a shot when working on watches and by a chance I found one when I changed the balance staff on one of these.
 

[Khan]

A huge gratitude to all responses.

First of all, it's now alive! It turned out that the  furthest centre pin at the tip of the pallet fork was slightly bent, so this was replaced as well. My challenge now is that the beat is low, like 16500 bph, which makes it running slow. I hear a slight scratching noise, but dont know where it comes from. The hairspring seems flat enough and is not touching the balance wheel from side view. 

 

[Nucejoe]

Slow in all positions? 

 

[nickelsilver]

Hairspring should be centered better, but that won't give you a rate like that. Are you sure the hairspring is in the regulating pins?

 

That's like 600 minutes/day slow; you can try removing a pair of timing screws (screws from opposite sides of the rim) and see what that does.

[Khan]

Yes, slow in all directions. Okay, I can try remove few screws here and there and see what happens. 

 

[nickelsilver]

Just now, Khan said:

Yes, slow in all directions. Okay, I can try remove few screws here and there and see what happens. 

 

If you remove screws they need to be in pairs, directly opposite each other, not here and there. Otherwise you might get close to whatever bbh it should be, but will have a positional error in the hundreds of seconds.

[Nucejoe]

31 minutes ago, Khan said:

Yes, slow in all directions. Okay, I can try remove few screws here and there and see what happens. 

 

Haven't yet found where that scratching noise comes from, couldn't it be whats causing all this?  

Edited August 11, 2020 by Nucejoe
any pair as long as opposite sides, enhances the rate

[rodabod]

I suspect the issues here are due to mixing up parts from the 2nd series and 3rd series of balances from the 30T2 and 200-series family. 
 

1st: bimetallic cut, blue steel hairspring 

2nd: monometallic, screw rim, two arms

3rd: monometalic, smooth rim, four arms

 

 

[Nucejoe]

There is a good chance to produce the right beat, unless the bare wheel( all screws removed)  runs slow too.  

Edited August 11, 2020 by Nucejoe
make that a definte chance, he may need to start cutting

[Khan]

Hi Rodabod 

Only hairspring is replaced. Everything else is untouched to the watch. Visually, it looks the same as the original hairspring. But I dont know if it makes any difference? 

[Khan]

Actually, I have seen the watch run normal before dismantling. I had to replace the hairspring because it got a serious bent when turning the regulator, as it was stuck in the regulator pins.

[Nucejoe]

24 minutes ago, Khan said:

Actually, I have seen the watch run normal before dismantling. I had to replace the hairspring because it got a serious bent when turning the regulator, as it was stuck in the regulator pins.

If not broken, sorting out the old hairspring is a lot easier than trying to vibrate a new one, especially that the kink is in the terminal region of the spring. 

 

[rodabod]

4 hours ago, Khan said:

Hi Rodabod 

Only hairspring is replaced. Everything else is untouched to the watch. Visually, it looks the same as the original hairspring. But I dont know if it makes any difference? 

Where did the hairspring come from? As I explained before, there are different versions. 

[Khan]

It comes from a cal. 268 as I remember. 

[Nucejoe]

Bidfun has not lied, they are in the same generation, that means CGS is the same for both, since it runs slow it will definately vibrate, though your balance complete may look like laurel hardy if you had to cut too much of that hairspring.

Dose your old HS still have a desent coil? Will you show a close up of it.