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problem with Tissot C01.211


Question

Hello dear watchmakers.

I have a Tissot automatic chronograph watch with C01.211 (which is based on Lemania 5100).

The one and only issue I have with the watch is that when I try to hand-wind the watch,

the rotor rotates violently, shaking the whole watch.

I have an another Tissot chronograph with the same movement and it winds very softly without any shaking.

I am about to take my hands on this watch to fix it.

Could anyone give me a tip on fixing the issue I am having??  I am quite new to chronographs and a little tip would sure be a great help.

Thank you. 

c01-211-4a.png

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Clean and check winder module, treat with epilame fixdrop, be prepaired to replace the reverser with new.

Good luck

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The auto system on this caliber is very simple. The reverser is really just a pinion on the rotor which is held in one direction by a click spring. The pinion needs to turn freely (minus the spring) on the rotor, and be lubricated. When hand winding the pinion spins past the click; if the lubrication has become sticky the rotor will spin. Use a plastic pointed stick (or two) to remove the clip holding the rotor on, it's very easy to scratch the rotor with metal tools.

 

If you do a full service on it, beware of using alcohol on the date support (it's a full plate made of acrylic that covers the dial side)- alcohol will damage it. It's possible that the latest executions changed the plastic but I don't think so. I wouldn't recommend it as a first chronograph, it's a robust movement but has some tricky parts to deal with.

 

Here's a manual

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I have some NOS parts including some discontinued parts to lemania 5100, should you come to need any of what I have, be happy to gift wrap em for you. 

Wonder if they go to use before I kick the bucket.:lol:

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18 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi   Lemania 5100 is used in the Omega 1045. I have attached the tech sheet for the omega 1045 and the technical instructions for the Lemania 5100.   Hope you find them us ful

1283_Omega1045 (2).pdf 429.16 kB · 2 downloads 5188_Lemania5100_Technical Instructions_Smaller (3).pdf 2.64 MB · 1 download

Hi WW,  I have an AS-5100 complete balance, fits zenith 5100, any relationship or interchangability with lemania 5100 or Omega 1045, or are the two different creatures, I wonder if spec of balance complete can be gathered from techsheets? or other sources? 

TIA   joe

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Hello dear watchmakers.

I feel truly blessed to be a member of this website.

I will take a look at the reversing wheel and hopefully get it working again.

I really appreciate all of your advice :)

 

On 8/9/2020 at 2:46 PM, CaptCalvin said:

Sticky reversing wheel.

 

23 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Clean and check winder module, treat with epilame fixdrop, be prepaired to replace the reverser with new.

Good luck

 

22 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The auto system on this caliber is very simple. The reverser is really just a pinion on the rotor which is held in one direction by a click spring. The pinion needs to turn freely (minus the spring) on the rotor, and be lubricated. When hand winding the pinion spins past the click; if the lubrication has become sticky the rotor will spin. Use a plastic pointed stick (or two) to remove the clip holding the rotor on, it's very easy to scratch the rotor with metal tools.

 

If you do a full service on it, beware of using alcohol on the date support (it's a full plate made of acrylic that covers the dial side)- alcohol will damage it. It's possible that the latest executions changed the plastic but I don't think so. I wouldn't recommend it as a first chronograph, it's a robust movement but has some tricky parts to deal with.

 

Here's a manual

 

20 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi   Lemania 5100 is used in the Omega 1045. I have attached the tech sheet for the omega 1045 and the technical instructions for the Lemania 5100.   Hope you find them us ful

1283_Omega1045 (2).pdf 429.16 kB · 2 downloads 5188_Lemania5100_Technical Instructions_Smaller (3).pdf 2.64 MB · 1 download

 

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi WW,  I have an AS-5100 complete balance, fits zenith 5100, any relationship or interchangability with lemania 5100 or Omega 1045, or are the two different creatures, I wonder if spec of balance complete can be gathered from techsheets? or other sources? 

TIA   joe

 

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5 hours ago, east3rn said:

I will take a look at the reversing wheel and hopefully get it working again.

There is no reversing wheel, as master nickelsiver explained above.

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On 8/9/2020 at 11:55 AM, Nucejoe said:

Clean and check winder module, treat with epilame fixdrop, be prepaired to replace the reverser with new.

Good luck

I hadn't seen the picture before making comment, though its ETA type reversers, never had worked on any, just got some parts in a watchmakers estate I bought years ago. I guess these last a lifetime, unless some parts break.

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Yes if not reversing wheel then it's probably a wig-wag mechanism that's not wig-wagging. Either way it's a clutch mechanism that's become seized in one way or another.

Edited by CaptCalvin
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41 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Nucejoe     I have dug up the AS5100 tech and the 5200, the lemania and the Omega are already posted  so a comparisson could be made    cheers

AS 5100, 5101, 5102, 5103, 5104, 5106, 5150, 5151, 5152, 5153, 5154, 5156.pdf 1.94 MB · 0 downloads AS 5200, 5201, 5202, 5203, 5204, 5206 (1).pdf 2.59 MB · 0 downloads

Much appreciate this WW.  Regards 

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I have tried removing parts that seem to be part of automatic winding mechanism.

I cleaned them and put them back together.

However problem is not solved and movement is making clipping sound (this is new,  I got myself an extra trouble :<)

Plus, I feel that the rotor feels loose and wobbly, shakes on the pivot.

Would this be the cause??

KakaoTalk_20200811_165922789_01.jpg

KakaoTalk_20200811_165922789.jpg

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On 8/9/2020 at 4:25 PM, Nucejoe said:

Clean and check winder module, treat with epilame fixdrop, be prepaired to replace the reverser with new.

Good luck

d

On 8/9/2020 at 5:04 PM, nickelsilver said:

The auto system on this caliber is very simple. The reverser is really just a pinion on the rotor which is held in one direction by a click spring. The pinion needs to turn freely (minus the spring) on the rotor, and be lubricated. When hand winding the pinion spins past the click; if the lubrication has become sticky the rotor will spin. Use a plastic pointed stick (or two) to remove the clip holding the rotor on, it's very easy to scratch the rotor with metal tools.

 

If you do a full service on it, beware of using alcohol on the date support (it's a full plate made of acrylic that covers the dial side)- alcohol will damage it. It's possible that the latest executions changed the plastic but I don't think so. I wouldn't recommend it as a first chronograph, it's a robust movement but has some tricky parts to deal with.

 

Here's a manual

 

15 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

Yes if not reversing wheel then it's probably a wig-wag mechanism that's not wig-wagging. Either way it's a clutch mechanism that's become seized in one way or another.

 

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1 hour ago, east3rn said:

However problem is not solved and movement is making clipping sound (this is new,  I got myself an extra trouble :<)Plus, I feel that the rotor feels loose and wobbly, shakes on the pivot.
Would this be the cause??

 

Have you looked at the documents posted above? in your picture at least the winding click is missing. You need to fully understand the working of parts and their ensemble, otherwise you won't be able to diagnose faults.

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1 hour ago, east3rn said:

I cleaned them and put them back together.

in addition to cleaning did you use any form of lubrication?

1 hour ago, east3rn said:

Plus, I feel that the rotor feels loose and wobbly, shakes on the pivot.

did you notice in jdm's message above the reference to understanding the working of the parts? If the rotor feels loose it must rotate on something does that look worn at all?

 

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A culprit is worn axle( that rotor gets mounted on)  or rotor bushing or loose axle mounting,  however worn or broken jewel, pivot or bushing anywhere in selfwinder mech can not be ruled out.

If all parts are okay, it is back to lube which don't seem to be as sensative on this as is on ETA type reversers.

Is the axle screwed or rivetted on( loose axle). Re-check all holes/ pivots and gear teeth under high magnification including rotor pinion.

 Do you have extra parts left in the tray? 

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9 hours ago, east3rn said:

Plus, I feel that the rotor feels loose and wobbly, shakes on the pivot.

What do you mean by "shake"? As in there is excessive play? Or that it vibrates up and down as it spins?

Edited by CaptCalvin
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27 minutes ago, CaptCalvin said:

What do you mean by "shake"? As in there is excessive play? Or that it vibrates up and down as it spins?

Good question, do you mean axle itself shows side shake? ( loose axle)? will you clarify.

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I was luck enough to get a Tissot watch with updated version of the same movement(working fine)

I compared the parts side by side and tried switching the rotor. (the rotor does shake on the other watch as well)

It seems that there is problem with the rotor because the new watch was showing the same symptom with the rotor from the watch I was woking on.

Also I realised that on the new watch, the wheel that goes under the rotor was much closer to the pivot than the rotor.

So I tried putting the wheel on the pivot before putting the rotor instead of installing the wheel on the rotor first.

The symptom did get better, the rotor doesn't react as before and when the watch is facing up, rotor stays calm.

I added some photos for others to refer to.

Black rotor is from the new watch.

KakaoTalk_20200812_220836499.jpg

KakaoTalk_20200812_220836499_01.jpg

KakaoTalk_20200812_220836499_02.jpg

KakaoTalk_20200812_220836499_05.jpg

KakaoTalk_20200812_220836499_06.jpg

KakaoTalk_20200812_220836499_07.jpg

KakaoTalk_20200812_220836499_08.jpg

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20 hours ago, east3rn said:

I was luck enough to get a Tissot watch with updated version of the same movement

The updated version doesn't have the exact same movement number? Then updated does not necessarily mean that it's brand-new perhaps both watches are worn.

 

On 8/11/2020 at 4:41 AM, Nucejoe said:

A culprit is worn axle( that rotor gets mounted on) 

I don't see any pictures of the axle how does it look?

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2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The updated version doesn't have the exact same movement number? Then updated does not necessarily mean that it's brand-new perhaps both watches are worn.

 

I don't see any pictures of the axle how does it look?

See part No 1400 on diagram.  

Regards Joe

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3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

See part No 1400 on diagram.

Which diagram? As usual and not paying attention did we get a diagram for this particular watch?

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2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Which diagram? As usual and not paying attention did we get a diagram for this particular watch?

Datasheet Weasol provided the link to on lemania 5100 includes a diagrams. 

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28 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Datasheet Weasol provided the link to on lemania 5100 includes a diagrams

Are absolutely right my bad the part does exist except minor itsy-bitsy problem Perhaps?

 

On 8/12/2020 at 6:49 AM, east3rn said:

I was luck enough to get a Tissot watch with updated version of the same movement(working fine)

What I'm curious about here is for the second movement updated version what was updated?

 

 

Here's what my problem is we have two versions identical versions even though one was improved? Then we have the silly link below that I Have quoted something out of below the link

https://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=ETA_C01.211

"In 2008, Tissot requested a low-cost mass-produced chronograph movement for entry-level Swiss watches. ETA created this Cal. C01.211 based on the Lemania 5100 design. It was simplified and re-worked to be more attractive, "

The problem with the quote is it doesn't say that this is an exact 100% reproduction of the original. Simplified and reworked especially on a watch can have interesting consequences?

Now back to my original question now that we know the axle part number 1400 is removable perhaps the original poster could give us pictures of that. For one thing this movement was made or could have been made in 2008 and it's conceivable it has wearing issues. This is why showing those pictures of the rotor isn't entirely helpful without a picture of the axle. 

omega 1400 part.JPG

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