Chipped Jewel cause of Low Amplitude?

[smcchr00]

Hi again everyone, 

I have a Baylor Unitas 6498-1 that is running with slightly low amplitude, and I'm trying to narrow down the cause. I'm a beginner, so oiling could be the issue, but I feel like it's okay. I'm going to strip it, clean, and try again anyway. 

One thing I did notice is that there is a chip in one of the jewels in the train of wheels. Overall, the jewel looks to be in good shape, and the jewel hole is nice and round, so I'm wondering if this could be the cause of such low amplitude? Currently it's been running at about 220°. I'm expecting this to be around 290°. 

I put in a brand new mainspring, and everything else seems to be running well. Beat error is respectable, and it's keeping time well after a lot of adjustment. I've attached a picture of the jewel in question. 

Thank you in advance.

Sean

[rodabod]

That jewel is cracked. It's hard to see the train layout from your photo, but if the side-thrust pushes the pivot into the crack then it would very possibly reduce amplitude.

[Nucejoe]

I second rodabod. 

Furthure the chip will only get worse, chance to replace it is now.

 

[smcchr00]

Appreciate the answers! I'll do some research, but I figure I'd need some special tools for something like that? 

It is the second wheel, by the way, if that makes any difference on the amplitude. I'm up to around 250° now

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, smcchr00 said:

Beat error is respectable, and it's keeping time well after a lot of adjustment.

it's hard to tell how bad the jewel is. If it just had a crack that didn't seem to have any visual effect on the hole itself that's acceptable. Cracked jewels are actually quite common especially in vintage pieces. Though I problem is this isn't vintage at least vintage enough and that should be a synthetic stones shouldn't have a crack or a flaw. The real test is look at the pivot if the pivot is scored you're going to have to replace the wheel and the jewel.

Then it be nice for us to see timing results like what is an acceptable beat error and why did you have to do so much adjustment for timekeeping always wrong with this watch before you started?

Then if you look at the technical specifications for the watch the watch companies are not obsessed with amplitude they're obsessed with timekeeping. The only time they have an obsession with amplitude is 24 hours later then it has to be a certain minimum.

[smcchr00]

Hey John, 

When I received it, it was not a running watch (missing parts), so I don't know how well it was keeping time at that point. By the time I got it running and on the time grapher, it was gaining over 1k seconds per day. I believe I tried to get the impulse jewel in line visually, prior to having a time grapher, so I probably missed decently using this method. 

Once the time grapher came in, everything was pretty far off, and it just took a lot of work moving the regulator around and fixing the beat error. Adjusting one seemed to have a reasonable effect on the other. 

The current second wheel in that hole is new. Here are my current time grapher results. 

[smcchr00]

@JohnR725 Forgot to tag you, in case you wanted to see the time graph

[smcchr00]

That's dial up on the time grapher. I just did more testing, and there is a lot of positional error. Possibly my balance is out of poise? -30-40 in every position outside of dial up basically. and amplitude drops below 200. Still working my way through Marks fault finding videos. 

[rodabod]

That’s usually a screwless balance. Unlikely to have been put out of poise by material removal, but not impossible. 
 

Compare dial-up to dial-down rate to see if it’s likely that the rate is being affected by the hairspring sticking. Also, does how is the amplitude when the rate drops in the other positions? Is it relatively favourable?

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, smcchr00 said:

That's dial up on the time grapher. I just did more testing, and there is a lot of positional error. Possibly my balance is out of poise? -30-40 in every position outside of dial up basically. and amplitude drops below 200.

we need to establish a proper timing procedure and not jump to wild conclusions. For instance I agree with rodabod modern screwless balances almost impossible to have positional errors unless somebody got really creative. But if you're amplitude drops below 200° that is going to give you issues. The lower the amplitude the greater everything looks on the timing machine basically everything gets really magnified. Tiny positional errors will no longer be tiny the lower of amplitude.

Even though modern watches unless there chronometer grade are not usually timed in six possessions for watch repair diagnostic purposes it's good if you would time your watch and six positions. On your timing machine change that averaging time to 20 seconds when it powers up it defaults to something much smaller. 20 seconds makes the numbers look more even. when changing positions allow a stabilization time like 30 seconds. Then time for maybe 40 seconds or so. Then give us the numbers so this is dial up dial down and as I like to call them crown positions four of those. I crown up down left right.

Also if you wind the watch all the way up and let it run about 30 minutes to stabilize before you start timing.

Then out of curiosity what lift angle are using for this watch?

[smcchr00]

@JohnR725 @rodabod

I appreciate the responses. I will do some more timing in multiple positions and report back. 

I am currently using a 20 second timing average at 44°. I do think it performs well in dial down as well as dial up, but I will confirm.

I tested last night a couple hours shy of 24 hours off full wind, I think amplitude drops were around 30° when testing various positions. 

Again, I'll do some more testing over the next few days to see how it's performing just off of full wind and after 24 hours. Thanks for the responses! More to come. 

[smcchr00]

@JohnR725 @rodabod

Stripped, cleaned, and lubricated again. When I originally got it, there was a small kink in the spring near the regulator, which I was able to decently fix I think. I examined it again today, and it looks like the terminal curve might be off, which I imagine is what is causing such significant timing changes when I try to regulate. A hair adjustment will easily make a 30 second change, but I dont know if that is normal or not. Photos attached.

Dial Down: +1  254°  0.2
Dual Up: -7 236 ° 0.2
Pendant Right: -24 184° .1
Pendant Left: -31 194° 0.0
Pendant Up: -46 183° 0.2
Pendant Down: -23 191° 0.0

Dial Up again after: -3 238° 0.0

Time grapher at 44° and averaging on 20 seconds. 

[rodabod]

The hairspring looks ok in the first photo you posted.  It that is concerning if the regulator causes excessive change when only moved very slightly. Better quality movements have longer hairsprings generally, which permits finer regulation. These hairsprings are reasonably long. 
 

If you really wanted to, you could mount the hairspring alone on the cock and check that it looks right in terms of alignment with the jewel hole. Getting the terminal radius corrected can be tricky, but yours at least looks consistent. 
 

In terms of your timing variations, the effect is being exacerbated by lack of amplitude. Don’t let this allow you to jump to the conclusion that the balance is out of poise. Get the amplitude up and see where you get to. I think your pendant positions are possibly showing excessive drop in amplitude. Given that this movement has been mucked about with previously, check the balance pivots aren’t bent, even though it has an antishock setting. 

[smcchr00]

1 hour ago, rodabod said:

The hairspring looks ok in the first photo you posted.  It that is concerning if the regulator causes excessive change when only moved very slightly. Better quality movements have longer hairsprings generally, which permits finer regulation. These hairsprings are reasonably long. 
 

If you really wanted to, you could mount the hairspring alone on the cock and check that it looks right in terms of alignment with the jewel hole. Getting the terminal radius corrected can be tricky, but yours at least looks consistent. 
 

In terms of your timing variations, the effect is being exacerbated by lack of amplitude. Don’t let this allow you to jump to the conclusion that the balance is out of poise. Get the amplitude up and see where you get to. I think your pendant positions are possibly showing excessive drop in amplitude. Given that this movement has been mucked about with previously, check the balance pivots aren’t bent, even though it has an antishock setting. 

Upon further inspection, i found that the hairspring was in fact touching the regulator, but not actually 'attached', or in the little slot, whatever it's called. I'm thinking that's whats causing the significant positional error. 

The first photo was after my correction. 

For some reason, the watch stopped ticking, so I'm working on the hairspring more now, which is how I noticed it wasin't inside the regulator. 

More frustrating time to come for me. I appreciate the feedback. 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, rodabod said:

In terms of your timing variations, the effect is being exacerbated by lack of amplitude. Don’t let this allow you to jump to the conclusion that the balance is out of poise. Get the amplitude up and see where you get to. I think your pendant positions are possibly showing excessive drop in amplitude. Given that this movement has been mucked about with previously, check the balance pivots aren’t bent, even though it has an antishock setting. 

a important thing to remember about amplitude is as it drops below 200° everything gets magnified. The beat error increase is you can end up with a hugely dramatic beat error just because the amplitude is low. You can't really worry about timekeeping typically until your above 200° amplitude.

Looking at your photographs a recommendation I would make is to hold the watch properly in the timing machine microphone. if the watches in its case then the way you're holding it is fine. But for movements usually works better if you turn the watch over as the dial side usually has a nice circle to grab and you make sure it's in the notches of the top of the microphone. This usually gives you the very best pickup and avoids other unpleasant things that can happen occasionally.

2 hours ago, smcchr00 said:

For some reason, the watch stopped ticking, so I'm working on the hairspring more now, which is how I noticed it wasin't inside the regulator.

looking at the balance wheel outside of the watch like you did can be helpful but it's really best to be a look at the hairspring in the watch. Because that's where the problems going to be not outside. Sometimes when it's outside of the balance leans a little bit ill change things. Then if they hairspring was outside of the regulator pins perhaps just touching that definitely is going to give you some bizarre timekeeping so it be much better if it's in the pins word supposed to be.

Then stopping is definitely an issue for timekeeping in amplitude and everything else.

as for looking at your numbers we had limited information due to the amplitude falling below acceptable number. The beat looks fine so that's okay. Dial-up and dial down a very a little bit they really should be identical. But as it's used watch the balance staff pivots could be an issue also lubrication could be an issue. But no matter what the soon as you go to the pendant positions and this is why always have people or ask people to give me the specifications you're pendant positions totally suck if this watch is wound up.

when you get your timing closer all give you the timing specifications of the watch and not good do it now ill just add the confusions. Except the watch companies obsession is with timekeeping and a tiny bit with amplitude. They get concerned if fully wound up its very close through past 300 they get excited about that. Then they could care less until 24 hours later the amplitude has to be greater than or equal to 200° typically. So you are definitely having a problem with this watch and that needs to be resolved

with the balance wheel out of the watch and the pallet fork out of the watch do you get back spin? not all watches will do this but if you start the wind the watch slowly you could do it fast but it makes it easier to see slowly. The train will start to spin when the train is spitting nice you stop winding the momentum of the train will continue to spin until the main spring winds down and it will actually wind the mainspring a little bit backwards. So if you're looking at the train spinning you will see it stopped for a moment and it will now spin backwards from that energy. Usually this is a sign of a free train. Sometimes it stops so fast you don't see a chill just noticed that the escape wheel is turning backwards when it comes to a stop. If you wind your watch and the train doesn't start spinning right away that's an indication of too much friction the same as if you have to really wind hard to get the train the spin that's definitely a fraction.

On 8/6/2020 at 6:33 AM, smcchr00 said:

When I received it, it was not a running watch (missing parts)

out of curiosity what parts did you change in this watch and what was missing?