a service question.

[Hitechrr]

I just had a lady rolex with a 2235 movement serviced. I checked it on a timegrapher when I got it home. Face up I had a rate of -13 amplitude of 234 and error of .4.  To me this looks like it still need service. The shop had it for 9 weeks. With crown up it reads -24, 204, .8. My 20 year old seiko runs at -6, 270,.3 and it has never been serviced. I think I should take it back to the shop. I was charged $360 for the service so I'm a little upset with it.

[rodabod]

That's not good enough, assuming you measured on a full wind with the correct parameters. I'd take that back.

Be careful telling them that you used a timegrapher. Sometimes that causes the argument of "you think you know everything just because you are able to measure something". It may be easier to say that the timekeeping wasn't as good as expected and you had it measured by someone else.

[KarlvonKoln]

I agree with Rodabod.  $360 should buy better accuracy than that.  If they have any pride in their work, and want to keep receiving your business, they won't balk at taking it back in, nor at regulating it properly without charging you twice.  The idea is to be so pleased with their service that you don't mind parting with the $360.

[Nucejoe]

 I'd let him check both your watches, Seiko and Rolex on his tg. 

[watchweasol]

I'am with Nucejoe on this, explain to him the problem politely he may well be sympathetic and do a comparison check for you.  Ask what machine did they time check it on.

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, Hitechrr said:

I was charged $360 for the service so I'm a little upset with it.

I don't see why you're upset about the price as if this was a real Rolex service shop or people paying attention the minimum starting price in the US to get a Rolex service is $600. Of course that would include a proper servicing and timing which you perhaps did not get.

timing of Rolex is not just putting it on the timing machine and timing it in one position.  there is a series of procedures to be followed and ideally somebody would write the results down. For instance the second procedure would be with the watch fully wound up and I would let it run about 30 minutes. Never time a watch fully wound always let it run a little bit somewhere between 15 minutes to an hour.. your going to time in five positions which are dial up, dial down, then with the dial facing you crown down, crown left and crown up. All the numbers are written down added together and divided by five.  for this watch that number should be -1  to +6.

for the amplitude the watch companies are different than this group is. They're not really concerned about amplitude at full wind they are concerned at 24 hours. Rolex does list dial-up and dial down at full wind no more than 300°. then 24 hours later in the crown positions it can't be less than 200°.

then if you feel really concerned about it you can also do the first procedure which requires you to wait 24 hours. If you're servicing the watch they only wind it half way a certain number of turns but it be easier for you just to wait 24 hours. The rerun the timing all five positions write the numbers down. Then you look for the greatest difference between the numbers at 24 hours and full wind. That number no more than 15.

the problem is a lot of watch shops are not really paying attention to what they need to do for timing. Basically they pop it on the timing machine regulated in one position and watch it for 24 hours then send it out the door. But even following this procedure the rule is the watch should always be fast and -13 really doesn't cut it it should have been much closer to zero.

 

[oldhippy]

Just return it and say you are not happy with the repair and explain why. 

[HSL]

I think the 2235 in general suffers from some amplitude problems. I wouldn't worry so much about that just make sure the amplitude is above 200 in vertical position after 24 hours. 
But just as  @JohnR725 says it's loosing way to much time, it should end up with on the slight positive side when calculating the average time loss in five positions, yours will not do so.
 

[Hitechrr]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I don't see why you're upset about the price as if this was a real Rolex service shop or people paying attention the minimum starting price in the US to get a Rolex service is $600. Of course that would include a proper servicing and timing which you perhaps did not get.

timing of Rolex is not just putting it on the timing machine and timing it in one position.  there is a series of procedures to be followed and ideally somebody would write the results down. For instance the second procedure would be with the watch fully wound up and I would let it run about 30 minutes. Never time a watch fully wound always let it run a little bit somewhere between 15 minutes to an hour.. your going to time in five positions which are dial up, dial down, then with the dial facing you crown down, crown left and crown up. All the numbers are written down added together and divided by five.  for this watch that number should be -1  to +6.

for the amplitude the watch companies are different than this group is. They're not really concerned about amplitude at full wind they are concerned at 24 hours. Rolex does list dial-up and dial down at full wind no more than 300°. then 24 hours later in the crown positions it can't be less than 200°.

then if you feel really concerned about it you can also do the first procedure which requires you to wait 24 hours. If you're servicing the watch they only wind it half way a certain number of turns but it be easier for you just to wait 24 hours. The rerun the timing all five positions write the numbers down. Then you look for the greatest difference between the numbers at 24 hours and full wind. That number no more than 15.

the problem is a lot of watch shops are not really paying attention to what they need to do for timing. Basically they pop it on the timing machine regulated in one position and watch it for 24 hours then send it out the door. But even following this procedure the rule is the watch should always be fast and -13 really doesn't cut it it should have been much closer to zero.

 

I had no problem with the price. I sent him an email and he told me to bring it in. He had it on a cyclotest for a few days before I picked it up. I'm going to let it run on my cyclotest for 2 days before I brig it back.. I did expect it to be off 2 to 4 seconds and a amp of at least 270.

	rate	amplitude	Beat error
Lady rolex
Face up	-13	234	.4
Crown down	-21	210	.5
Face down	-19	225	.5
Crown up	-24	204	.8
Crown left	-15	201	.5
Crown right	-20	203	.8

[Hitechrr]

2 hours ago, HSL said:

I think the 2235 in general suffers from some amplitude problems. I wouldn't worry so much about that just make sure the amplitude is above 200 in vertical position after 24 hours. 
But just as  @JohnR725 says it's loosing way to much time, it should end up with on the slight positive side when calculating the average time loss in five positions, yours will not do so.
 

What is a normal amplitude range on a Rolex? I know my eta 2824-2 runs around 290 and my Seiko 4r36 run around 275

[HSL]

28 minutes ago, Hitechrr said:

What is a normal amplitude range on a Rolex? I know my eta 2824-2 runs around 290 and my Seiko 4r36 run around 275

It differs a lot depending on wear and tear and the model of the movement. If you look at an average amplitude I usually get around 276 and a min 264 max 299 depending on the position the amplitude is measured in. This number probably is slightly different for someone else.
What's normal or not is hard to say I think and in my little world it really don't matter as long as it isin an average over 270 after a couple of hours.

If it is a  COSC Certified watch it should be within -4s to +6s or -5 to +8s in average daily rate meassured over a 10 day period.

I think  giving the movement time to settle is the most important when adjusting the positional error. Many just let it sit for 10 minutes or so and write up 300 as the amplitude but that number might not be very interesting since mainsprings have a high torque in the begining and will be a bit weaker after an hour or two.  The high torque will also impact a slightly worn movement more and initially give it a lower amplitude which increases when the power gets a little bit less.

But in this case I'm glad they agreed to take a second look at your watch.

 

[Hitechrr]

13 minutes ago, HSL said:

It differs a lot depending on wear and tear and the model of the movement. If you look at an average amplitude I usually get around 276 and a min 264 max 299 depending on the position the amplitude is measured in. This number probably is slightly different for someone else.
What's normal or not is hard to say I think and in my little world it really don't matter as long as it isin an average over 270 after a couple of hours.

If it is a  COSC Certified watch it should be within -4s to +6s or -5 to +8s in average daily rate meassured over a 10 day period.

I think  giving the movement time to settle is the most important when adjusting the positional error. Many just let it sit for 10 minutes or so and write up 300 as the amplitude but that number might not be very interesting since mainsprings have a high torque in the begining and will be a bit weaker after an hour or two.  The high torque will also impact a slightly worn movement more and initially give it a lower amplitude which increases when the power gets a little bit less.

But in this case I'm glad they agreed to take a second look at your watch.

 

That is what I expected from the movement. As you can see from the chart I listed and after 20 hrs the amplitude goes from 179-215.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Hitechrr said:

He had it on a cyclotest for a few days before I picked it up. I'm going to let it run on my cyclotest for 2 days before I brig it back..

you really need to do more realistic test? You're supposed to run a three-day test with only one day on an auto winder. They specifically what the watch run overnight 24 hours in specific positions to see how they do for timekeeping than the average over the three days. The problem with running on auto winder is running at maximum amplitude with a watch really should keep good time. This is not entirely the same as wearing a watch and then taking it off at night and putting it back on again.

Oftentimes with people are obsessed with auto winders especially watch shops they will find they have unhappy customers who may be don't put quite as much emotion into their watch and the watch totally sucks at running at a low amplitude.

 

[Hitechrr]

33 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

you really need to do more realistic test? You're supposed to run a three-day test with only one day on an auto winder. They specifically what the watch run overnight 24 hours in specific positions to see how they do for timekeeping than the average over the three days. The problem with running on auto winder is running at maximum amplitude with a watch really should keep good time. This is not entirely the same as wearing a watch and then taking it off at night and putting it back on again.

Oftentimes with people are obsessed with auto winders especially watch shops they will find they have unhappy customers who may be don't put quite as much emotion into their watch and the watch totally sucks at running at a low amplitude.

 

I only put it on there for 9 hrs. In 24 hrs it was 14 sec slow when set to my computer time. I'm going to leave it for the winder for 24 hrs and see how it does.It was about 30 sec slow before I sent it for service. It is a 20 year old watch.

[JohnR725]

21 hours ago, Hitechrr said:

It is a 20 year old watch.

while it might be a 20-year-old watch and Rolex would be happy if you would retire the watch and buy a new one. I'm sure it's capable of keeping reasonable time even by Rolex standards. Although Rolex does appear to have minor confusions on their standards. For instance I borrowed the Rolex service manual and copied a page for you which I'm attaching. Some of the numbers on this page varies a little from the other source of numbers I had from 2009. One of the things the service manual does get us is the maximum beat error which wasn't on the other list I had. at 0.8 ms maximum error you are within the specifications except realistically no one leaves the watch on the extreme edge of the specification it should have been much closer.

to understand what you're looking at in the attached image you'll notice it's not that simple for Rolex timekeeping which is why most shops probably don't follow the procedure. You need two sets of numbers the first set on the left-hand side which is at 24 hours running. Then the right-hand  set which is at fully wound up. The second criteria is the average of those numbers. The first criteria takes in the maximum difference between fully wound up and 24 hours. then in the source I have from 2009 the numbers  have changed a little bit minimum amplitude at 24 hours 200° maximum at fully wound 300°. The first criterion is still 15 seconds for both of them. The second criteria is now -1 to +6 seconds.

one of the problems with discussions is we don't always get the final outcome which is disappointing if we put time and effort into a discussion. When you get the watch back from the watchmaker could you update us on the status?

 

[Hitechrr]

That was the info I was looking for. Thanks! I returned the watch and he said he will have it in a few days. He saw that it was out of spec.after sitting for 24hrs. with crown right it was the worst at rate=-15 amp=179 beat error at 1.0. Best was face up at -16, 214 and .5.

[smcchr00]

 Could someone explain the four day observation? Is it full wind on day 0, at a particular time (ie 830 A/PM)? check timing the next day at 845 PM? 

is day 1 in crown left? What is reglomat? 

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, smcchr00 said:

Could someone explain the four day observation?

I'm attaching some additional images which I think might help perhaps. So you're supposed to make an observation manually wind the watch up and said at the time preferably something that's reliable timekeeper. Then 24 hours later you write down when you made the observation and that's why they have the time that's when the observation was made you could do it whatever you want as long as it's 24 hours later. It looks like from the form that I've attached that you're supposed to fill out its crown left for that 24 hours.then different terminology on one of these it says the word simulator I'm assuming what they're saying is you put it now on the auto winder for 24 hours then observe the rate. Then off the auto winder leaving it now faceup but another 24 hours a note the time. Then average all of those together.

I think the additional images will help make it a little more clear.

[smcchr00]

@JohnR725 Thanks John!