Help foe Hairspring issue

[2fancy]

Hello everyone, i opened up another seiko and i think my balance moved too much so now its in this shape/form.

 

When i put it in, it doesnt beat. How can i bring the Hs back to its normal shape from this point?

 

I tried to gently lift and pull towards the end thats condensed and stuck close together but it didnt help.

 

Please guide me through this new obstacle

 

[jdm]

33 minutes ago, 2fancy said:

Hello everyone, i opened up another seiko and i think my balance moved too much so now its in this shape/form.

What you've done is common with beginners - damage hairspring during removal or assembly. Beside being distored, it has left the regulator slot. More care and better technique  is needed on your side when doing that, please watch some video by Mark Lovick to see how that is done.

33 minutes ago, 2fancy said:

When i put it in, it doesnt beat. How can i bring the Hs back to its normal shape from this point?
I tried to gently lift and pull towards the end thats condensed and stuck close together but it didnt help.

The HS can be corrected but to be fair with you, as a beginner without even the proper fine tweezers, your chances of success are very low. Again there are video my Mark and and others on YT to see how it's done. Again - it's an advanced task that requires a lot of practice, so be accepting of this fact if you can't do it succesfully.

[luiazazrambo]

Mark has two videos for this, if you do this the first time, i put my money on the hairspring, it will laugh at you will form terrible shapes and it will come during the nights sneaking into your dreams, you wont be able to rest and your eyes will be red for a long while.  Good luck though! 

 

[2fancy]

Thank you guys, i see Marks videos but his HS have at least that full round shape. Mine is just leaning towards one side and other side is stuck together

[JohnR725]

personally I always like to see the hairspring issues with the balance wheel in the watch because that's where the problem will be a problem if there's an issue. Taking it out of the watch we can see there's a problem but it's hard to tell because we really can't see it very well. on the other hand my wild speculation is there was no problem until you took the balance wheel out of the watch? Then out of curiosity which Seiko is this and it looks like it has a etachron  system?

I'm attaching an image so you can see what the hairspring is supposed to look like. If it has the etachron  system like in the picture the stun holder should be about where that one is in the picture. in other words if you dramatically turned that the stud holder it would look possibly like which you have.

This is where it be nice to have a few spare worthless balance and/or hairsprings to play with. It takes time and practice to learn how to see the problem figure out where to bend and practicing on scrap balance hairspring is really profitable so when things like this come up here better prepared as opposed to practicing on this.

Then the classic place that we all love to bend our hairspring is at the stud. So providing you didn't rotate the stud you're probably just bent at the stud. To try an experiment for us lift up the balance move it over so the coils all look nice and circular. this is because if the rest of the hairspring itself looks fine it might allow us to see the terminal curve better as to where the problem is.

Then if this was not a etachron  system just removing the whole balance complete the bridge would be helpful but if you're not familiar with working on a system like this taking the balance off is problematic and getting it back on is even more problematic and as I said it's usually better to fix the problem in the watch so you can see what it looks like.

 

[jdm]

Just now, 2fancy said:

Thank you guys, i see Marks videos but his HS have at least that full round shape. Mine is just leaning towards one side and other side is stuck together

The principle of operation is still the same. To repair a severely distorted hairspring, first it must be removed from the stud arm - that is not very difficult, then ideally from the balance staff as well, but that is not really doable on Seiko like your. So you would place it with the wheel on an holed anvil, untangle the spring, and then proceed patiently to straighted. It can take a long time even for someone that know how to do it. Even if the wheel was completely straightened on all planes, you would have to place it back on the stud arm, and that is not easy, I'm attaching a couple of service sheets that show you how it's done. 7S26C_36C.pdf7S26B_36B.pdf

You will probably need to replace the balance complete with another  please do a Google site search for "7S26 balance" on this website, it has been asked very many time before, and lots of existing topics exist already.

[Nucejoe]

First thing to do is to find out if the collet is removable, disclosing the caliber helps. One way to show us the top view of the collet is to move the balance wheel away from the jewel assembly about 3 to 4mm to reveal the collet or simply hang the ballnce dangling from the cock.

 Just run the HS through the slot of regulator pin, place the pivot in jewel and let us see how it looks.

If you just put the cock- ballance back on the bridge, a top view of hairspring coil gives some clue as to assess the extent of damage if any. As is shown now, looks like no serious damage to the coil and little to the end curve.

I have heard of folks able to sort out hairspring coil right on balance wheel, but never met one. End curve is fixable with hairspring on the wheel.

So if removable and any damage to the coil, you would need to take the hairspring off of the balance and place it on a white flat surface like a sheet of white paper, it is only then that you can see the full picture ie; what the damage looks like. we can then proceed with manipualtion.

Replacement with a new balance complete is easiest and best choice. 

Good luck.

 

[CaptCalvin]

Do you have a microscope or are otherwise able to see the stud area in high magnification? It might not be as big of a headache as you think. It sort of looks like one of the inner coils got bound up either to the outside of the stud or inside the slot where the hairspring is glued.

[KarlvonKoln]

I agree with CaptCalvin and the others. I can see the hairspring's outer coil no longer runs through the regulator pin - and it should.  And I can see that, in some way, some of the outer coils have gotten caught up over by (or upon) the stud - which they should not.  Both those issues need to be addressed with the utmost care.  But I kind of think, once they are, odds are good you'll be able to see whether the balance is in running form.  I think there's a good chance it'll be fine.

[jdm]

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

First thing to do is to find out if the collet is removable, disclosing the caliber helps.

It's a Seiko as per title, 7S26B or C as the picture shows. Collet is not removable if you want to be able to use the balance again.

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I have heard of folks able to sort out hairspring coil right on balance wheel, but never met one.

I have seen in person a Master watchmaker do important corrections to an hairspring running.

8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Replacement with a new balance complete is easiest and best choice. 

Indeed , as mentioned above. But it can also be that for an enthusiast owner is enough to see the watch working around. No timegrapher available to show him how poorly it does.

[VWatchie]

I had a HS looking similar to this (I guess) and was very much helped by this post by @nickelsilver. Not saying that's all you need to do, but might come handy at a later stage. Good luck!

[Nucejoe]

28 minutes ago, jdm said:

It's a Seiko as per title, 7S26B or C as the picture shows. Collet is not removable if you want to be able to use the balance again.

I have seen in person a Master watchmaker do important corrections to an hairspring running.

Indeed , as mentioned above. But it can also be that for an enthusiast owner is enough to see the watch working around. No timegrapher available to show him how poorly it does.

If collet is not removable, then I let balance hang to free the HS from stud, lift to get spring back in regulator slot. then show us a top or bottom view of the coil. This thing will run if you settle for less than perfect.

[CaptCalvin]

If it's put together the same way as an NH35 then it certainly is removable. I have done it for a positional adjustment project and it still runs perfectly put back together. I will make a post as proof later.

Edited July 23, 2020 by CaptCalvin

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, CaptCalvin said:

If it's put together the same way as an NH35 then it certainly is removable. I have done it for a positional adjustment project and it still runs perfectly put back together. I will make a post as proof later.

You may have done that, but as it happens the OP is a beginner without tools, microscope, or the experience needed. And Seiko, for good reasons IMHO, only sells balance complete. Always good to consider the situation from where the question comes from, not everyone is a Master watchmaker, not everyone will become one.

[CaptCalvin]

26 minutes ago, jdm said:

You may have done that, but as it happens the OP is a beginner without tools, microscope, or the experience needed. And Seiko, for good reasons IMHO, only sells balance complete. Always good to consider the situation from where the question comes from, not everyone is a Master watchmaker, not everyone will become one.

Well with the way you have stated it I have interpreted it as a statement of fact that pertains to this caliber. I'm just pointing out that it should be as easy to remove as any other.

[jdm]

1 minute ago, CaptCalvin said:

I'm just pointing out that it should be as easy to remove as any other.

I wrote it above, removing is not much of a problem, putting back and having the balance work perfectly is another. At least for 99% of the people here, everyone is welcome to try and report here. You certainly have a good stacking set, jeweling set, huit-ciffre, agate poising tool, microscope and perhaps some more . And even if you miss one of these you would be able to supply with your talent and experience. Again the question I'm posing is, how good is for beginner that distorted an hairspring with the simple act of removing the balance to be give a show and lecture about abilities he can at most appreciate, but not imitate?

[CaptCalvin]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

I wrote it above, removing is not much of a problem, putting back and having the balance work perfectly is another. At least for 99% of the people here, everyone is welcome to try and report here. You certainly have a good stacking set, jeweling set, huit-ciffre, agate poising tool, microscope and perhaps some more . And even if you miss one of these you would be able to supply with your talent and experience. Again the question I'm posing is, how good is for beginner that distorted an hairspring with the simple act of removing the balance to be give a show and lecture about abilities he can at most appreciate, but not imitate?

I believe that when stating a fact that it should be correct. If it can be done then don't say that it can't. He can with appropriate warnings make his own decisions as to whether or not he should attempt it now or take this step down the road. If you're worried about the OP bitting off more than he can chew then simply say "I would highly advise against removing the collet at this time as it's a very difficult task for a beginner."

[jdm]

 

7 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

I believe that when stating a fact that it should be correct. If it can be done then don't say that it can't.

Again, it may be a fact for you. When you will want to show how it's done, how it's put back, how it's checked that is fine, that will be interesting to read. Because, unless I'm wrong, there are no walk-through from or any posting with pictures or videos from you.

7 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

He can with appropriate warnings make his own decisions as to whether or not he should attempt it now or take this step down the road. If you're worried about the OP bitting off more than he can chew then simply say "I would highly advise against removing the collet at this time as it's a very difficult task for a beginner."

That is the common sense that tried to put in all my postings so far, maybe you're too focused pushing your statements to read other's.
And with that I'm done debating, cheers!



 

[2fancy]

Hello all, firstly sorry i had left my phone in a Restaurant and tha k god found it back today.

I read all the suggestions. I am indeed not experienced and am a beginner. I dont have a microscope just yet and no staking tool. I have a 10x lens and HS tweezers fine ones. It is a 7009A movement as stated on the bridge.

I am attaching few pictures as requested by few members here in order to guide me better.

Im sincerely thankful to all of you for the input and i hope to learn more and fix this issue. I had few other balance that are in the same situation so i really want to learn to fix this.

Kindly advise further , these are the pics

[CaptCalvin]

4 hours ago, jdm said:

Again, it may be a fact for you. When you will want to show how it's done, how it's put back, how it's checked that is fine, that will be interesting to read. Because, unless I'm wrong, there are no walk-through from or any posting with pictures or videos from you.

That is the common sense that tried to put in all my postings so far, maybe you're too focused pushing your statements to read other's.

Like I said I will be making a post about my project in the projects section real soon. It's main focus will be on what can be achieved with the NH35 and similar movements in terms of positional consistency with some work. Although it will include pictures with the hairspring+collet removed from the balance as well as it put back together and running on a timegrapher, how it's done will not be elaborated on, reason being it was done the same way as you would any other movement: with hand levers, and it was not any harder nor more challenging than any other movement. Therefore such standard process does not warrant my explanation as it can already be referenced from numerous sources.

I have read your statements and the one I take particular issue with was this one:

15 hours ago, jdm said:

It's a Seiko as per title, 7S26B or C as the picture shows. Collet is not removable if you want to be able to use the balance again.

It's written as a reply to Nucejoe, who, if asking this question, clearly knows that this is a measure one might take to correct a hairspring and was giving sound advice. Yet you state "Collet is not removable if you want to be able to use the balance again" as in "not possible without breakage", when in fact it comes off and goes back on as easily as any other. He was then misled into believing such a task is not possible on this caliber, as evidenced by his subsequent post recanting the earlier advice he gave and proposing a less than ideal solution. Who are you protecting from this "harmful information?" Or do you actually believe Seiko uses some special method for mounting collets to their balance wheels making them non-detachable without breakage?

I believe as adults that when we want to learn how to do something, we should be given factual information about how to best approach it. We can decide for ourselves if it is something we are willing to try or if compromise is needed if for whatever reason the ideal solution is not achievable at our skill level or risk of failure is not tolerated. Withholding or giving erroneous information in an attempt to protect someone is what you do to kids. Doing so to an adult would be an insult to their intelligence.

4 hours ago, jdm said:

And with that I'm done debating, cheers!

Well that's hardly fair isn't it if you checked out of the debate before I got a chance to make a rebuttal or closing statement?

Edited July 24, 2020 by CaptCalvin

[CaptCalvin]

1 hour ago, 2fancy said:

Kindly advise further , these are the pics

Okay my earlier assessment of an inner coil binding up at the stud appears to be incorrect. It seems that you do have a bit of a headache on your hands. I'm afraid I must ask you to detach the stud from its carrier to separate the balance complete from its bridge so we can get a clearer look at the hairspring in its relaxed state and tell you which spots might need correction.

Here is how an intact balance complete should look like detached from the bridge:

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by CaptCalvin

[Nucejoe]

You seem to have one sharp bent only on the outer coil.

If the hairspring is glued to the stud? Soak in acetone to disloved the glue or apply heat to the stud by soldering gun to burn the glue.

If hairspring is closed in stud slot, see if you can open the slot by inserting a safety razor into it, to loosen it enough to release the hairspring.  The shear weight of the stud on hairspring might give you problem to sort out the hairspring back to level.

In case you can spot one sharp bend, remove the cock, find a way for your tweezers to get to the bend, hold the bend in your tweezers and keep striking the bend in your tweezers till unbent.

Priority goes to methods that don't require HS removal.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, CaptCalvin said:

Like I said I will be making a post about my project in the projects section real soon. It's main focus will be on what can be achieved with the NH35 and similar movements in terms of positional consistency with some work. Although it will include pictures with the hairspring+collet removed from the balance as well as it put back together and running on a timegrapher, how it's done will not be elaborated on, reason being it was done the same way as you would any other movement: with hand levers, and it was not any harder nor more challenging than any other movement. Therefore such standard process does not warrant my explanation as it can already be referenced from numerous sources.

I have read your statements and the one I take particular issue with was this one:

It's written as a reply to Nucejoe, who, if asking this question, clearly knows that this is a measure one might take to correct a hairspring and was giving sound advice. Yet you state "Collet is not removable if you want to be able to use the balance again" as in "not possible without breakage", when in fact it comes off and goes back on as easily as any other. He was then misled into believing such a task is not possible on this caliber, as evidenced by his subsequent post recanting the earlier advice he gave and proposing a less than ideal solution. Who are you protecting from this "harmful information?" Or do you actually believe Seiko uses some special method for mounting collets to their balance wheels making them non-detachable without breakage?

I believe as adults that when we want to learn how to do something, we should be given factual information about how to best approach it. We can decide for ourselves if it is something we are willing to try or if compromise is needed if for whatever reason the ideal solution is not achievable at our skill level or risk of failure is not tolerated. Withholding or giving erroneous information in an attempt to protect someone is what you do to kids. Doing so to an adult would be an insult to their intelligence.

Well that's hardly fair isn't it if you checked out of the debate before I got a chance to make a rebuttal or closing statement?

Welcome to Jdm's club captCalvin, this should teach you to run and fast as soon as jdm starts the next debate in a min.

[Jon]

Come on guys!... 2fancy has a problem with his hairspring, so it's not about who is ultimately right.

Personally I try not to make absolute statements to say something 'can't be done' as someone will prove otherwise.

I like to get the hairspring off the balance cock, so just the hairspring, collet and stud are present, then I'll see just how out of round it is.

I place the hairspring on top of the balance cock, position the stud over the stud carrier and the collet in the centre of the jewel and see if the hairsprings outer curve marries up with the regulator pins. I get a good idea what needs tweaking then.

Personally, I would try removing the hairspring collet from the balance staff, regardless of what I'm told can or can't be done. The experience of it is worth the cost of a donor balance 

[CaptCalvin]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Welcome to Jdm's club captCalvin, this should teach you to run and fast as soon as jdm starts the next debate in a min.

It was not my intention to butt heads with anyone or derail the topic. I don't frequent this board nor contribute (which I plan on rectifying soon) as much as some of you and I have nothing but the highest of respect for those that do, and I understand @jdm to be one of them. I hope there to not be any hard feelings nor any animosity going forward.

Edited July 24, 2020 by CaptCalvin