Citizen 8110A Chrono help

[MyRetroWatches]

HI Guys

I am fairly new to posting on this platform but have lurked for years..   I have managed to land one of my mini grail watches, A stunning Citizen 67-9054  which houses a 8110A chronograph movement.  Watch appears to be running quite well although ive only had it for a day. 

 

Now I had an issue right at the start as the crown would not stay on the stem so I used some thread locker and solved that issue.   I then inserted the stem back in and it seemed to go in nice and heard a reassuring click.  However now it stays there, I cannot pull it out to set the hands or date...  Stem release and a damn good pull removes it fortunately.  

I am thinking something is out in the keyless perhaps...?

 

Now I am new to Citizen and have never taken apart one of their chrono movements and this one I believe is a good one, clearly this movement was competing with Seikos 6139-6138 movements and from what I have read this one can be considered better.  its a 28,800 BPH so nice!
 

The top subdial hand has been repainted and badly..  not too concerning as I have some experience with painting Seiko hands.

Flyback is not returning the centre second hand back to 12 so I will need to address this.  I am unclear if the hand setting procedure is the same as a Seiko in that you would need to press both pushers and hold to then fit the hand.  I do not have a special movement holder for a Citizen.

 

Also the hour counter subdial on the chrono will fly back but is constantly running, not sure if this is supposed to be doing this or not, I feel not.

 

So I have a few issues to sort out which in some ways I will probably enjoy as I can get to know the watch better but I am full of trepidation. I have never worked on one of these before and my chronograph experience amounts to just Seiko 6139s that I have done around 10 now. 

SO my questions are, 

1, I cannot seem to find any form of Service manual online for these movements so does anyone have one / a link to one.  (Thanks)

2, I perhaps need a part number for the stem to see if one is available should this one be incorrect.  I have tried Cousins and Boley but unfamiliar with Citizen numbers to know if I am entering the codes right. 

3,  How difficult are these movements, I find Seiko very logical and in many ways simplistic in their design.  So do Citizen follow the same path?

4, Does the centre chrono hand look high compared to the hour and minute (see photo) 

I really dont want to mess this up,  I feel fairly confident in my ability but I worry for hidden springs and alike that could be lost. Watch runs and the chrono function work. Movement looks clean but zero service marks.  

Oh and the crown would set the hands and date before it fell off. 

 

Thanks in advance for any advise given. 

 

[Nucejoe]

You might need a couple of spare  C clips or circlips that hold chrono pushers in place. 

If you happen to need to remove levers in the chrono mech , record a video of the mechs, as you push the pushers that activates the chrono in. Saves time and the parts.

Escape pivot have real tiny shock springs, so a couple of extra springs to place order for.

A thin washer that resembles dial washer sits under the cam , which gets lost easy, some just ignor it and end up having issues.

Balance staff has no end shake by design, but check jewel holes to the staff for excess wear which can eat amplitude.

I take plenty of pictures during disassembly.

Good luck.

 

[CaptCalvin]

That chrono hand does look too high. Maybe the source of the reset to zero problem. As opposed to 7750 you do need to hold the reset in to install all 3 hands as all the hammers are actuated directly with the pushers and not spring loaded. Note that the chrono second hand is keyed to the post. It should stay put and reliably reset to zero as long as it doesn't back out.

I have no experience with the Seiko so I do not know how it compares to that, But I do have extensive experience with 7750 and I would say this is magnitudes more complicated, difficult, and less enjoyable. Chief of which that annoys me is the difficulty in finding parts. Up until now I cannot find a fresh mainspring for mine, OEM or otherwise, which I would consider to be the most consumable part.

There are also a crap ton of different screws to keep track of. I can now remember which kind of screw goes where but this frustrated me to no end when I first started working on this movement.

It's heavy handed on the sub-assembly. The hammers, reset lever, buffer and spring, minute recorder brake, hour recorder brake lever, vertical clutch actuator etc all need to go in the underside of the top most plate in a specific order. On a 7750 you do all the work on the movement held securely by a movement holder. Here you're off to fiddle with sub assemblies wiggling around on an anvil. Very heavily integrated design too in that nothing works until the movement is mostly back together as opposed to 7750 which you can get running pretty early on in the assembly process.

All in all take it slow and and take lots of pictures. Pay real close attention to where each type of screw goes. The smaller screws are easily confused with the naked eye, 2 of which are also ever so slightly elongated and don't get anywhere but the lever springs on the top side of the top plate.

[AlexeiJ1]

Yeah I had issues with the screws, I set them aside on a bit of cardboard. There were way too many different types.
I also found the calendar very complicated at the time and did not justify re-learning it. I just cleaned all the jewels and the mainplate and fitted everything back together.

These are quite well built, arguably better than the venerable 6139.
I found a simple service and re-assembly was enough to have it running well.

[MyRetroWatches]

17 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

Hi , thanks for your reply. I have started on the dial side to see if I can fix the immediate problems.  I have some interesting results so will post shortly on them below. 

 

[MyRetroWatches]

Hi Guys,  

So last night I decided to remove the hands and dial and get down to the keyless to see what is out of place there.  I removed the movement from the case and movement ring.  I tried to press down the Chrono second hand more,  it moved but only slightly, also pressing down on it I could feel a spring to it which I am guessing is the clutch at work.?  Therefore did not want to use much force at all. 

Attempting to lever the hour subdial hand resulted in the crap paint job showing its true colours , it immediately flaked... 

 

 

 

This hand was really stuck and when it did finally release it left the hand tube still on the pinion!!  I was gutted but figure this is not really my doing and probably a result of whoever painted it.  There is evidence of someone attacking these subdials as the dial is marked around both holes.    I use Horotec 2.5 hand levers and some plastic which is usually pretty bulletproof  way to remove hands.

 

Once I had removed the day & date wheels I was able to carefully lever the tube off the pinion.   This will make for an interesting fix that I hope I can achieve on my staking set. It will be a nervous procedure... 

 

 

I am finding it quite interesting how the watch is made up in layers, possibly a good design but I will wait and see.  There certainly seems to be endless parts and screws. 

Once down to the keyless it was clear the issue.   Yoke has rode over the clutch wheel.   I see this allot in Seikos , it seems to happen without much explanation other than stem removal.  I have only removed the stem once so hope its not a flaw as that will end up in disaster if once built back the stem causes the same issue... ! 

 

So at this point I have left it.  it was late at night and I needed a scotch to calm down.  

The plan will be to sort the hand out and paint it, build the watch back and fit these hands again along with the stem, see if the watch will then work better.  

I want to wear it and test to see,  I found evidence of oil last night so despite no service marks I would surmise that another hobbyist / owner has attempted to fix it before. 

I have confidence in my abilities but sometimes I know you can be opening a can of worms and might be best to leave alone if its running okay afterwards.

 

We will see.   

Would still really like a service manual for these!! 


  

[watchweasol]

Hi  plenty of advise so I will keep my nose out.    Tech sheet for the 8110 attached.  cheers

Citizen 8100, 8110 (1).PDF

[MyRetroWatches]

Ps,  do I need a special tool to remove the rotor on these,  has some rectangular part which I assume must be turned but its not that obvious,  thanks   

[Nucejoe]

3 minutes ago, MyRetroWatches said:

Ps,  do I need a special tool to remove the rotor on these,  has some rectangular part which I assume must be turned but its not that obvious,  thanks   

I just use a flat nose plier to unscrew the rotor screw. You might drop a piece of nylon on the screw head( like you do when removing hands), trying to avoid scratching parts there.

[Nucejoe]

37 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  plenty of advise so I will keep my nose out.    Tech sheet for the 8110 attached.  cheers

Citizen 8100, 8110 (1).PDF 252.31 kB · 1 download

Your nose!   always welcome.

[watchweasol]

Hi I Have this lot on file wether it of use to you 

1971 Citizen Technical Information - 01 Intro.pdf 1971 Citizen Technical Information - 02 Watch Case.pdf 1971 Citizen Technical Information - 03 Watch Movement.pdf 1971 Citizen Technical Information - 04 Ladies Movement.pdf 1971 Citizen Technical Information - 05 Gents Movement.pdf

[CaptCalvin]

Well there is a bit of good news. I found the reason why your hour counter is perpetually running. Doesn't look like anything's broken, just parts not installed properly.

That leg needs to be tucked behind that post in order to provide tension for the brake to properly grip the hour recorder wheel.

[MyRetroWatches]

On 7/20/2020 at 2:29 PM, Nucejoe said:

Your nose!   always welcome.

Thank you for this document

 

[MyRetroWatches]

On 7/20/2020 at 9:26 PM, CaptCalvin said:

Well there is a bit of good news. I found the reason why your hour counter is perpetually running. Doesn't look like anything's broken, just parts not installed properly.

That leg needs to be tucked behind that post in order to provide tension for the brake to properly grip the hour recorder wheel.

 

sir, thank you so much for this.  I am assuming the post it the one above the spring that you have circled.  I would have never known so this is a life saver! 

[MyRetroWatches]

So Just a little update,   I reassembled the keyless works and now the stem works as it should.   I then rebuild all back to dial, that said I will now have to disassemble again due to @CaptCalvin wise advise on spotting why the hour counter continually runs. 
All practice I guess but at least dial side is straighforward enough. 

So I then turned my attention to the hour counting sub hand.   I am still getting to grips with my staking set and in all honesty I dont really know how to use it for what its designed for.  I;d love to change a staff one day but for now it was put into action for this tiny hand tube fitting. 

Fortunately the tube has a flange / shoulder so I was able to find a suitable hole on the staking plate that the tube would sit on this shoulder.   I placed the hand on the top to line up and gently pushed on a bit just so it would hold the hand. 
I then flipped it over and put the hand tube up in a little plastic container, found a stake with a suitable hole to fit over the tube but only rest on the shoulder. 
 a few hand pushes to the stake and it was back on much to my relief!   Pretty small parts I have to say.  I did not use any glue so I am hoping that friction will be enough to told it.  Time will tell. 

The tail end of the hand looks bent downwards, the temptation is there to try and straighten that but I dont want the two separating so for now I will leave it as is. 

 

After a bath of nail varnish remover I then peeled off the remaining paint and then washed it in alcohol ready for painting. 

At this point I can now notice how damaged it is and the cause for the separation.  I still insist this was not by my hand given the marks on the subdial where someone has not used any protection.  The hand at its sides are slightly bent upwards. Suggesting some force,   I did have to use a bit to get it off but using hand levers and rocking side to side I would not expect to see this type of damage.  My experience tells me that damage is from a presto type tool ( I could be wrong) 

 

 

So onward to the painting.   I have painted quite a few hands and always do it under a microscope where generally it looks terrible but to the naked eye pretty good.   I used enamel (Humbrol) white paint,  mixed with a little thinners.  I apply with a green oiler and let the paint pool off the oiler onto the hand,  with enough paint it will circle the hole without filling it.  the long part of the hand can be done in a single stroke.  I am pleased with the outcome however under the scope it has dried to a rough texture rather than smooth. Really puzzled why it would do this. 

 

So its now been 24 hours and by tonight 36, which should be enough time for the paint to have hardened enough to withstand fitting. 
On Seiko 6139's I have tended to paint the hand insitu as it then does not mark it when you fit.  So I may still have to re-do this hand if it does not fit well. 


Wish me luck,  not fitted hands on one of these so pressing and holding the flyback in one hand and fitting in the other is going to be fun.  Fortunately for me this has an acrylic crystal that just falls out of the case so I will re-case and fit through the top to make reset easier to hold in. 

Still nervous,  no idea why.... 

 

Thanks for you help so far guys.  Brilliant stuff. 

[CaptCalvin]

9 hours ago, MyRetroWatches said:

sir, thank you so much for this.  I am assuming the post it the one above the spring that you have circled.  I would have never known so this is a life saver! 

Yup. As such:

[MyRetroWatches]

1 hour ago, CaptCalvin said:

Yup. As such:

 

Thanks again .  Nice movement holder. Specific for the Citizen chrono?

[CaptCalvin]

4 minutes ago, MyRetroWatches said:

Thanks again .  Nice movement holder. Specific for the Citizen chrono?

No that's actually one for 7750's. I find that if I have the metal spacer mounted on the movement that it sits nicely in the 7750 holder. You have to be lucky enough to possess a metal spacer in the first place though as I understand it's a rarity. If you don't have one I find that the Bergeon movement holder works well enough if you take your time to find an orientation where all 4 corners have enough meat to clamp onto. It's a frigidity process yes but it beats working on a case cushion or bench mat.

[MyRetroWatches]

So another day on and now more problems have presented themselves.  

I rebuilt all to dial last night, placing the spring in position like @CptCalvin suggested.   Came to fit the hands.  I fitted the hour and minute no problem.  then the hour counter repainted hand I did this while holding reset. this was difficult in a Bergeon 4040 holder but the hand went on well.  To test would take an hour really but when i pressed reset the hand did not move so I assumed all was well. 

Sub minute hand and chrono I followed the same procedure and all seemed to be working good so proceeded to case the movement after cleaning all the indices as they were all covered in a greasy film.  Guess from years of neglect.

Once in the case I could finally wear and test.  I let it run for 20 mins or so and then pressed the flyback.  I saw the hour counter swing past twelve and arrive at more like 11- 10/30!  

There it has sat ever since.  With or without chrono engaged the hand does not move at all. Damn.  I cant think as to what it now wrong but I am assuming its dial of again.  Really didnt want to remove this hand again either due to the earlier separation of the tube and hand.... 

 

 

So there is it in the photo.   Watch is keeping good time after well over 12  hours now.  I can take heart from that.

 

However as the day has gone on I have been testing the flyback and now have a new fault... 

basically anything past 30 seconds flyback is fine and returns to 12,  anything from 0-15 seconds results in a less than powerful flyback that leaves the hand in random places between 12- 05 seconds.   Past 15 seconds it returns better but not to the top.

What on earth is this!    I am beginning to think nothing but a full stripdown is going to solve my issues but taking photos of position of parts as I disassemble to find out they are in the wrong place already could mean I then rebuild with the same errors.

Here is a link to a video showing the flyback issue. 

 

Hopefully one of you guys could point me into the right area to look. 

 

Thanks in advance.

[CaptCalvin]

Engage and disengage the chrono and observe what the post I circled in red does to the brake. This is supposed to push against the brake to release grip on the hour counter when you engage and back off when you disengage. Also with regards to reset that's just the way it is with this movement. The hammers are directly operated by the reset button and not spring loaded so you really have to give a firm and brisk push to the button for a clean reset. Making sure to properly lubricate the chrono mech might somewhat enhance reset performance. 

[MyRetroWatches]

Thank @CptCalvin  

Since posting this morning I have removed the hands, dial and first plate.  Looked at the spring you referred to was still in place, It was,  I do wonder if the cam / heart was not engaged with the driving wheel.  

I then noticed that the flyback is two levers, One to operate the hour and the other minutes.  I realised that I did not press in the top part when fitting the hands.  Its really hard to push it in with some pegwood in a Bergeon 4040 and then try to fit the hand.   Really need a better holder for this job.  My 6139 holder is to small unfortunately to accommodate the movement. 

Anyway I also then swapped the sub hands over to be sure it was not the tube.  

End result with the hands back on is the counting hours dial now works and seems to stay stopped with chrono off.  Hands still have issues with flyback , mainly the centre seconds one.  Frustrating but at least progress has been made. 

I will now have to consider taking apart the chrono side and figuring all that out , I get the point about a firm press but to me its more than that given past 30 seconds it seems to be easier.    An examination will hopefully find the fault but for now I am going to enjoy wearing it for a few days!

 

  

[CaptCalvin]

Liberally grease the heart cams and see if that improves anything.

[MyRetroWatches]

1 hour ago, CaptCalvin said:

Liberally grease the heart cams and see if that improves anything.

Okay, looks like the train bridge is coming off then!