National Electric Watch Cleaning Machine

[luiazazrambo]

Hi Moose, it seems after the Mantel Clock i follow you to repair a National Watch Cleaning Machine, i got a MK VR though. Going to post pictures later, it was only delivered this morning. I found a related video:

What happened to your videos, they don't want to start?

[luiazazrambo]

There is one for sale on UK ebay if someone is interested:

National Watch Cleaning Machine

[oldhippy]

This one has the normal basket fitting. No timer fitted to this one. Good price got all the jars and complete basket.

[luiazazrambo]

Hi OldHippy, I got mine about the same price + delivery yesterday without the basket unfortunately. I think there is a timer on it actually. That white knob behind the heated chamber on the right hand side.

[oldhippy]

Can you get a basket? Just had a look on ebay, some on there but there in the U S A and the postage cost is as much as the basket. 

[luiazazrambo]

I guess it is not going to be easy or cheap to get a basket for it. I keep looking. I can see some of the baskets in the USA now you mentioned, but I am not sure if the dimensions of the baskets are correct for national.

[oldhippy]

You will need to measure your machine first. Then contact the seller and see if it will fit yours.

[MrRoundel]

FWIW, and realizing this is an older thread, I too have issues with my L&R cleaners leaving residue on parts after cleaning. Sometimes it seems like they went in cleaner than they came out. And even if the cleaner left something on the parts I'd expect that the rinse would cut through whatever it was and rinse it off, but it did not.

Once the cleaner has sat in the jars for a week or more, it leaves a sticky brown substance on the jar and the metal parts within. This can be after only cleaning one movement. I often end up emptying the solutions and cleaning this residue with denatured alcohol before refilling. It leaves the same sticky film on the SS containers on my WatchMaster ultrasonic.

I'm pretty sure that the cleaner and rinse were the same as the OP's. They were the solvent based, non-ammoniated versions. I used them in both an old L&R mechanical cleaner and a WatchMaster ultrasonic and got the same disappointing results. It seemed like I'd clean one watch, get decent results, and all subsequent cleanings this was not so. None of the watches were visibly over-oiled or super grimy.  I'll likely be trying an ammoniated Zenith solution next time I order cleaners and hope for the best. Cheers.

Edited July 14, 2020 by MrRoundel
Typo

[rodabod]

@MrRoundel that residue you are seeing I have observed if the oil-based L&R solutions get contaminated, especially with water or soapy water. 
 

There was a discussion here a while back about a similar issue. 

[Jon]

On 7/14/2020 at 4:10 PM, MrRoundel said:

FWIW, and realizing this is an older thread, I too have issues with my L&R cleaners leaving residue on parts after cleaning. Sometimes it seems like they went in cleaner than they came out. And even if the cleaner left something on the parts I'd expect that the rinse would cut through whatever it was and rinse it off, but it did not.

Once the cleaner has sat in the jars for a week or more, it leaves a sticky brown substance on the jar and the metal parts within. This can be after only cleaning one movement. I often end up emptying the solutions and cleaning this residue with denatured alcohol before refilling. It leaves the same sticky film on the SS containers on my WatchMaster ultrasonic.

I'm pretty sure that the cleaner and rinse were the same as the OP's. They were the solvent based, non-ammoniated versions. I used them in both an old L&R mechanical cleaner and a WatchMaster ultrasonic and got the same disappointing results. It seemed like I'd clean one watch, get decent results, and all subsequent cleanings this was not so. None of the watches were visibly over-oiled or super grimy.  I'll likely be trying an ammoniated Zenith solution next time I order cleaners and hope for the best. Cheers.

I sorted my problem of the residue by changing my cleaning fluid and rinse. I now use 'Fine Clean' and 'Fine Rinse' by a company called 'Quadralene' https://quadralene.com/

They don't advertise it and you can't buy it directly from their website, you have to call them. The great thing is you get 5 litre containers, instead of 3.8 litres that L & R sell and it is a lot cheaper. I think it works out about £70 with delivery, whereas L & R fluids will cost over £100 and you get 20% less fluid. No brainer!

It's non ammoniated, but works a dream

[VWatchie]

I tried something new with my 70 year old Elma cleaner yesterday. As always, I use Elma Red 1:9 (ammoniated) for about six minutes, then rinse in deionised water for about 2 minutes, and a finally rinse in Suprol Pro (really nasty stuff) for about 2 minutes. However, this time around, as I was just cleaning a mainspring, its barrel, lid, and arbor, I ran the motor as hard as I could. This made the Elma Red look like pink milk, but the result was pretty amazing. I've always run the motor pretty moderately for fear of destroying the hairspring but the results have just been so so, requiring quite a bit of after cleaning. The next time around I will "put the pedal to the metal" and see how it goes 

EDIT: When using water based cleaning solutions (like the ones I describe in the above paragraph), be very careful not to overdo it. The first time I tried my Elma machine I ran it for something like 40 minutes, and the entire movement got stained and even some rust started to develop. It took me a day of manual cleaning and polishing to get everything in acceptable order 

Edited July 16, 2020 by VWatchie

[luiazazrambo]

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I tried something new with my 70 year old Elma cleaner yesterday. As always, I use Elma Red 1:9 (ammoniated) for about six minutes, then rinse in deionised water for about 2 minutes, and a finally rinse in Suprol Pro (really nasty stuff) for about 2 minutes. However, this time around, as I was just cleaning a mainspring, its barrel, lid, and arbor, I ran the motor as hard as I could. This made the Elma Red look like pink milk, but the result was pretty amazing. I've always run the motor pretty moderately for fear of destroying the hairspring but the results have just been so so, requiring quite a bit of after cleaning. The next time around I will "put the pedal to the metal" and see how it goes 

EDIT: When using water based cleaning solutions (like the ones I describe in the above paragraph), be very careful not to overdo it. The first time I tried my Elma machine I ran it for something like 40 minutes, and the entire movement got stained and even some rust started to develop. It took me a day of manual cleaning and polishing to get everything in acceptable order 

When you say "pretty moderately" what do you mean by that? Have you got that vortex seen in the video above when you ran it "pretty moderately"? I am assuming Elma would work the same way as a National one? Would it be possible for you to send us a video?  I have Elma 1:9 and Suprol pro too here, but have not got the chance to try it out yet as my National is not in a great shape yet, received a few days ago.

 

[luiazazrambo]

It might be an off topic question, but do you recognize the "things" on the attached picture? I got them with the cleaning machine but I dont think they belong together?

Edited July 16, 2020 by luiazazrambo
rotating pics

[VWatchie]

On 7/16/2020 at 11:41 PM, luiazazrambo said:

When you say "pretty moderately" what do you mean by that? Have you got that vortex seen in the video above when you ran it "pretty moderately"?

With “pretty moderately” I mean exactly what you see in the video.

On 7/16/2020 at 11:41 PM, luiazazrambo said:

I am assuming Elma would work the same way as a National one?

Yes, exactly the same way!

The next time around I will run the motor to the point that the solution is about to spill over the edge of the glass jar. My only worry is that the hairspring may not survive it. What do you think? What’s your experiences?

Edited July 18, 2020 by VWatchie

[luiazazrambo]

I have never ever used a watch cleaning machine in my life yet. I have to resurrect my National Watch Cleaning Machine you can see above first. Its going to be slow as I have a very limited time, but I am preparing it slowly. Bought a roll of 2 mm thick cork yesterday for jar lid seal and I am in a hunt for black and white, cloth covered, 3 cores cable. Seems that everybody wants black and white for some reason. I am also going for a holiday/ remote working session so I will be without my precious toys for a month or so! What a nightmare!!! 

[HectorLooi]

I have 2 theories why the cleaning machine is not cleaning properly. 

I noticed that L&R Extra Fine contains ammonium hydroxide and propanol. If it becomes contaminated with water, it would react with oil and produce a soap by a process of saponification. The reason for the fluid turning green may also be evidence of the presence of water in the fluid. The gummy residue is soap scum.

My second theory is the rotation of the basket is too fast, and the level of fluid in the jar is not high enough to prevent the fluid inside the basket from being spun out. Hence the centre of the basket is actually running dry.

Perhaps a chemist and physicist can confirm my hypothesis. 

[Fatcapp]

hi there Moose,  i know this is an older thread, but hoping you can help me?

I am restoring the same machine as this, nuv I have hit a snag; the wires for the motor have broken at the grommet entering the motor!  I have managed to get the motor apart to replace the wires, but it looks like they are attached the the magnetic windings and I can't seem to get them out of the case!?

Did you have to replace your motor wires and if so, how did you do it?

Many thanks in anticipation 

Jon

[Seth]

Good Morning I hope that you are all keeping safe and well during this tough time.I hope someone can help me with a small problem I have.I have recently purchased a National Watch Cleaning Machine MK VR and everything is working apart from the cable from the heating element has come unsoldered at the switch.I have checked the element with a multimeter and it appears OK.The wiring is in a poor state so I will be replacing all of it with new heat resistant cabling.Can anyone help me with where does the indicator lamp for the heater connect to as the wires are just hanging loose.Also can anyone suggest a suitable connector to use between the central cable to the motor as the existing one is cracked and I will need to replace it.All help will be gratefully received.Regards, Photos and wiring sketch enclosed.

[rodabod]

The heater lamp can just go in parallel with the heater element, assuming it's a 240V neon.

[rodabod]

Regarding connector types, an IEC or Neutrik Powercon could be suitable.

[Seth]

Good Afternoon,I hope you are all keeping safe and well during this tough time.Just a quick question to ask if anyone knows how to remove the motor shaft and basket holder from my machine.There is a small grub screw that appears to go into the shaft just below the motor housing but after removing this screw the shaft is still not moving any ideas????Well I have completely rewired this unit with flexible heat resistant cable and just for extra protection I have also fitted glass fibre sleeving on cables near the heating element.I have also fitted new switches,neon and a PTC Ceramic heating element.I fitted the new element on an aluminium disc of 5 mm thickness cut to 100 mm dia,this resulted in me having to raise the heatin chamber chimney by about 25-30 mm to clear the new heating element mounting bracket.The system is now running great and hopefully I will get many more years out of this unit.Photos enclosed including the old wiring,switches,neon and heater,Regards to all keep safe,Seth.

[oldhippy]

Due to the fluid that it has been running in all these years I wouldn’t be surprised to find it has corroded together.

[rodabod]

That sounds like a great restoration. 
 

Have you tried tapping the basket assembly to free it? You could place something like a small spanner above where the basket head attaches to the shaft and then tap the spanner with a hammer. If the basket head is cast aluminium then it may be brittle. 

[AlanRH]

Hello I have also just purchase a 1940s national electric watch cleaner - very similar although with a new flex and 13 amp plug, will need a good lean up all complete but no baskets that i can see yet! Are you still in discusion i would very much like to hear what you did on refurb, i have some crinkle paint from a car resto and hammerite and cork tiles too.

Alan

[Moose]

Still here... 

Apologies to “Fatcapp” for missing his earlier post.

I did not have to rewire my motor, so did not take it apart.

To Alan, ask away... but pretty much what I did is recorded here.

G.