404 Club

[AndyHull]

Given that it is branded Sekonda and that it states USSR on the dial, we can be certain that it is between 1966 (when the Sekonda brand was founded) and 1991 or 1992 when the USSR ceased to exist.

We may be able to narrow it down a bit further with some online research.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

Given that it is branded Sekonda and that it states USSR on the dial, we can be certain that it is between 1966 (when the Sekonda brand was founded) and 1991 or 1992 when the USSR ceased to exist.

We may be able to narrow it down a bit further with some online research.

Thanks Andy. I know its no later than around 1974 or 75 I had my hands on it when i was around 7 maybe 8 years old. I hoped the serial number on the case back would have given me the exact year. If its before 1973 then I'm more inclined to think it belonged to my grandfather, he passed away in the autumn of 73. My dad nearly always bought Sekonda, i have two others of his an lcd from the late 70s and a  cheap more modern quartz maybe 15 years old. I have a feeling he bought sekonda because of this one belonging to his dad. He kept a non working watch for nearly 50 years for some reason.

[AndyHull]

You could ping Raketa an email. They mention something on their website, I think it is in one of their recent catalogs, that they have their historical style books, so they may be able to give you an exact date, or at least a data range for that style of dial.

https://raketa.com/w/en/contacts-2/

You could also try reaching out to Raketa Watch Club

https://www.raketawatchclub.com/contact

Edited November 3, 2022 by AndyHull

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, AndyHull said:

You could ping Raketa an email. They mention something on their website, I think it is in one of their recent catalogs, that they have their historical style books, so they may be able to give you an exact date, or at least a data range for that style of dial.

https://raketa.com/w/en/contacts-2/

You could also try reaching out to Raketa Watch Club

https://www.raketawatchclub.com/contact

Thanks Andy. I had the thoughs that they wouldn’t be interested in helping. I will have to watch for a storm of British intelligence on my back door for contacting Russia.

[AndyHull]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I will have to watch for a storm of British intelligence on my back door for contacting Russia.

You 'aint living life to the full unless you are on a "watch list" somewhere.

Edited November 3, 2022 by AndyHull

[AndyHull]

Before I forget, there is also this site -> https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/raketa

It might also provide some clues.
Keep clicking the "Show More" link at the bottom of the page and you eventually see these.

There is also a Sekonda section..

https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/sekonda

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by AndyHull

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 11/3/2022 at 4:42 PM, AndyHull said:

Before I forget, there is also this site -> https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/raketa

It might also provide some clues.
Keep clicking the "Show More" link at the bottom of the page and you eventually see these.

There is also a Sekonda section..

https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/sekonda

 

Thanks Andy. If this site is accurate it seems the watch i thought belonged to my grandfather actually was my father's and some things make sense now, the stem was rusted inside and he was an avid swimmer also an avid drinker so likely a pint of beer was spilt over it . I'm quite upset by that fact and not entirely sure what i want to do with it now. Andy thank you so so much for your help with discovering this, i cant thank you enough .  

[AndyHull]

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

'm quite upset by that fact and not entirely sure what i want to do with it now

Fix it of course, they are great little watches and they 'aint making any more of them. I have an almost identical one, which also needed some work on a rusted  stem and keyless work. This seem to be a common issue with them.

Sekonda also sold Zim, and a bunch of other Russian brands -> https://russian.watch/brands/zim

Edited November 6, 2022 by AndyHull

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Fix it of course, they are great little watches and they 'aint making any more of them. I have an almost identical one, which also needed some work on a rusted  stem and keyless work. This seem to be a common issue with them.

Sekonda also sold Zim, and a bunch of other Russian brands -> https://russian.watch/brands/zim

Thanks Andy. I do owe this watch something, without having it i would not have begun learning to repair watches. It is running but with low amplitude of around 190 at best but with its full power reserve of 45 hours. Its having a few days to settle in after a clean and service, then i will decide where its going. Back to £4.04 watches Andy thank you again for all your help, its people like you that make this forum so great.

[AndyHull]

Another little bit of horological history for you. I picked up this "Corsan London" orphaned mechanism a while back, and last night spent a little time cleaning it and getting it running.

Sadly I don't have a suitable case for it yet, but I did get it ticking away nicely. I did a little online research to see if I could find out anything about "Corsan London", and came up with something I had to share.

"Corsan" is almost certainly Thomas Corsan, and I found a similar, but probably slightly older watch from 1833 (numbered 298) here -> https://www.cogsandpieces.com/pocket-watch-1739-corsan/
 

Thomas Corsan appears to  be Thomas Robert Corsan son of another Thomas Corsan, born in Wapping, Middlesex, England on 1804 to Thomas Corsan and Sarah Abel. Thomas Robert Corsan married Ann Naldrett and had 1 child. He passed away on 24 Dec 1869 in Wapping, Middlesex, England. Of course Thomas Corsan could also be the father mentioned in this record.

https://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/thomas-robert-corsan-24-5jzp4r

Corsan was based at 119 St Johns High street, St Johns, Wapping, London, and if you fire up Google maps, you can see that this now looks like a very expensive part of town.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/119+St+John's+Wood+High+St,+London/@51.5339244,-0.1736139,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x48761abdd06b9711:0xa27914c98e8ade4c!8m2!3d51.5339211!4d-0.1714252

However this is just the start of where things get interesting.

When I looked up Thomas Corsan, Watchmaker, London, I found a record in, of all places The Old Bailey Court records.

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t18320906-3

As you can see, our Mr Thomas Corsan seems to have been the victim of the theft of two rather expensive watches, valued at 13l (13 £ or 13 Pounds, zero Shillings and zero pennies) and two silver thimbles valued at 6d each.

This would have been a considerable sum,  £13 in 1832 would be worth £1,720.15 today. As you can see, these were quality items, probably in precious metal cases.

The two "naer do wells" that were caught for the crime were both found guilty, and both WILLIAM JONES and HENRY SMITH were sentenced to "Death"!

However by 1832 this sentence was rarely carried out, except for the most heinous crimes, and indeed it is possible to look up their fate in the court sentencing database.  https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#death

I took the trouble to look up our two "hapless heroes" and it seems they were both ultimately sentenced to transportation, so if you are reading this in some former penal colony, or indeed any place else on earth and your name is "Smith" or "Jones" you may be reading about some distant relative.

There is also a chance, all be it a slim one, that this mechanism was one of the ones "lifted" by the two unfortunate teenagers.

Of course the watch itself is the real star of the show. It appears to have diamond end stones on the balance, and the fact that it is still running 180 plus years later is testament to the craftsmanship that went in to it. Not bad for a pocket money ebay purchase. Now if only some other rogue hadn't melted down its case for scrap, but then again if they hadn't, then it almost certainly wouldn't have come in to my possession.

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Another little bit of horological history for you. I picked up this "Corsan London" orphaned mechanism a while back, and last night spent a little time cleaning it and getting it running.

Sadly I don't have a suitable case for it yet, but I did get it ticking away nicely. I did a little online research to see if I could find out anything about "Corsan London", and came up with something I had to share.

"Corsan" is almost certainly Thomas Corsan, and I found a similar, but probably slightly older watch from 1833 (numbered 298) here -> https://www.cogsandpieces.com/pocket-watch-1739-corsan/
 

Thomas Corsan appears to  be Thomas Robert Corsan son of another Thomas Corsan, born in Wapping, Middlesex, England on 1804 to Thomas Corsan and Sarah Abel. Thomas Robert Corsan married Ann Naldrett and had 1 child. He passed away on 24 Dec 1869 in Wapping, Middlesex, England. Of course Thomas Corsan could also be the father mentioned in this record.

https://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/thomas-robert-corsan-24-5jzp4r

Corsan was based at 119 St Johns High street, St Johns, Wapping, London, and if you fire up Google maps, you can see that this now looks like a very expensive part of town.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/119+St+John's+Wood+High+St,+London/@51.5339244,-0.1736139,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x48761abdd06b9711:0xa27914c98e8ade4c!8m2!3d51.5339211!4d-0.1714252

However this is just the start of where things get interesting.

When I looked up Thomas Corsan, Watchmaker, London, I found a record in, of all places The Old Bailey Court records.

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t18320906-3

As you can see, our Mr Thomas Corsan seems to have been the victim of the theft of two rather expensive watches, valued at 13l (13 £ or 13 Pounds, zero Shillings and zero pennies) and two silver thimbles valued at 6d each.

This would have been a considerable sum,  £13 in 1832 would be worth £1,720.15 today. As you can see, these were quality items, probably in precious metal cases.

The two "naer do wells" that were caught for the crime were both found guilty, and both WILLIAM JONES and HENRY SMITH were sentenced to "Death"!

However by 1832 this sentence was rarely carried out, except for the most heinous crimes, and indeed it is possible to look up their fate in the court sentencing database.  https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#death

I took the trouble to look up our two "hapless heroes" and it seems they were both ultimately sentenced to transportation, so if you are reading this in some former penal colony, or indeed any place else on earth and your name is "Smith" or "Jones" you may be reading about some distant relative.

There is also a chance, all be it a slim one, that this mechanism was one of the ones "lifted" by the two unfortunate teenagers.

Of course the watch itself is the real star of the show. It appears to have diamond end stones on the balance, and the fact that it is still running 180 plus years later is testament to the craftsmanship that went in to it. Not bad for a pocket money ebay purchase. Now if only some other rogue hadn't melted down its case for scrap, but then again if they hadn't, then it almost certainly wouldn't have come in to my possession.

Great story Andy. I couldnt help but think of the tv series that i loved to watch watch as a kid.  Alias Smith and Jones.

[mbwatch]

Okay my first 404 submission: One US dollar (plus $4 shipped) for a Diantus EB8800 pin pallet movement watch. I've seen these often for sale and sold for low prices, but usually in poor condition. This one was sold as a non runner but looks like it was never worn. It's in perfect condition except for a scratch on the caseback that looks like it was done with a case knife. I opened it up to put a touch of 9010 on the escape exposed escape wheel pivot and it jumped to life, keeping perfect time over the last 12 hours. I might keep it for myself because I do like the colors but after I service it maybe I'll resell and double my investment.

[AndyHull]

6 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

maybe I'll resell and double my investment.

Maybe even triple it... there should be a law against such excess!

[spectre6000]

18 hours ago, AndyHull said:

We pretty much don't get watches like that here...

[AndyHull]

I was almost tempted to buy it. Just because it is wrong on so many levels. Its still available on the Bay of "E" if you are interested.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, AndyHull said:

I was almost tempted to buy it. Just because it is wrong on so many levels. Its still available on the Bay of "E" if you are interested.

Haha thats just so shit its great  

[GuyMontag]

I really like the looks of this Vantage watch (17 Jewel International Durowe 7422).  I believe Vantage was a sub-brand of Hamilton. It came as a good runner but with a low amplitude that a cleaning took care of.  I added a strap and now another watch goes into rotation.

 

[AndyHull]

Two slightly scruffy individuals angling for membership of the club are on their way.

The Trafalgar is probably an EB8800 variant, and thus, not Automatic despite the automatic sounding "Datomatic" name.

 

The Sekonda was actually slightly over the 404 mark, but the very low postage (lower than it will probably actually cost to post) means it qualifies under my arbitrary local rules.

It also seems to have half a bucket of Dulux paint splashed on it for free, which is always a bonus.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:00 PM, AndyHull said:

Two slightly scruffy individuals angling for membership of the club are on their way.

The Trafalgar is probably an EB8800 variant, and thus, not Automatic despite the automatic sounding "Datomatic" name.

 

The Sekonda was actually slightly over the 404 mark, but the very low postage (lower than it will probably actually cost to post) means it qualifies under my arbitrary local rules.

It also seems to have half a bucket of Dulux paint splashed on it for free, which is always a bonus.

 

Haha the Sekonda, are you copying me mate ? Would you mind letting me know any issues with it and a tg reading for comparison. Mine is not getting above 210 ' , still original mainspring but it looked fine. A tad of friction in the train though. Hows your watchroom coming on as well matey ?

[AndyHull]

15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha the Sekonda, are you copying me mate ?

I couldn't resist.

Quote

Would you mind letting me know any issues with it and a tg reading for comparison. Mine is not getting above 210 ' , still original mainspring but it looked fine. A tad of friction in the train though.

I'll give you my thoughts when it arrives.

Quote

Hows your watchroom coming on as well matey ?

Its looking not bad, but I've had too many other distractions lately. I'll try to remember to post a few pics at some stage.

Edited November 14, 2022 by AndyHull

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

I couldn't resist.

I'll give yo my thoughts when it arrives.

Its looking not bad, but I've had too many other distractions lately. I'll try to remember to post a few pics at some stage.

Thanks Andy . I'm pretty sure its looking great, your previous posts on the new bench was really good. Ive found myself very busy this past few days sorting out a huge stock of balance staffs. The seller said that there were no big names in boxes. I think that the only big name he knew was rolex. Upto now 2 blanc pain and 2 VC quite small calibres though. Loads of cyma, bulova, movado , marvin, elgin, Waltham, oris , seiko, enicar, doxa, venus,and few hamilton to name but a few. Cylinder staffs. Let me know if you need anything, i will probably have it

[AndyHull]

Actually you don't need to wait, since as I said, I already have this one in the collection, which is very similar to yours.
 

Lift angle I think is 42° and I serviced it a while back (some time around May 2020, since that is when I saved the above "as purchased" ebay auction picture).

It looks to be still in good running order as you can see below.

The swing is OK at 245°, but could be a little better. 

I do enjoy wearing it from time to time (as you can tell by the slight scuff on the crystal) as it has a nice simple classical and very readable Roman numeral dial. I had assumed it was from the mid 1970s until we looked in to it. I wonder when they actually first produced this design.

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Let me know if you need anything, i will probably have it

I may take you up on that. That is quite an interesting haul you have there. It also reminds me I need to sort through some of the recent purchases. Some mainsprings and crystals for starters. 

EDIT: Those scuff marks on the crystal were bothering me, so I just spent the last 10 minutes buffing them out, and shining the thing up like new.
Guess what I will be wearing tomorrow.

I forgot to say, the case back number on mine is 186063, not that we have been able to make much sense of the case back numbers so far.

Edited November 13, 2022 by AndyHull

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Actually you don't need to wait, since as I said, I already have this one in the collection, which is very similar to yours.
 

Lift angle I think is 42° and I serviced it a while back (some time around May 2020, since that is when I saved the above "as purchased" ebay auction picture).

It looks to be still in good running order as you can see below.

The swing is OK at 245°, but could be a little better. 

I do enjoy wearing it from time to time (as you can tell by the slight scuff on the crystal) as it has a nice simple classical and very readable Roman numeral dial. I had assumed it was from the mid 1970s until we looked in to it. I wonder when they actually first produced this design.

I may take you up on that. That is quite an interesting haul you have there. It also reminds me I need to sort through some of the recent purchases. Some mainsprings and crystals for starters. 

EDIT: Those scuff marks on the crystal were bothering me, so I just spent the last 10 minutes buffing them out, and shining the thing up like new.
Guess what I will be wearing tomorrow.

I forgot to say, the case back number on mine is 186063, not that we have been able to make much sense of the case back numbers so far.

It does look identical Andy the dial on mine was a little grafted and after inspection of the chip at the side of mine i came to the conclusion it was enamelled. Either that or very thick hard paint. So i took a risk and went at it with piece of foam and some brasso ( not as crazy as i make it sound ). It removed some minor scratches and came up like new. Yes the lift angle is 42 ' yours have better power than mine.

3 hours ago, AndyHull said:

may take you up on that. That is quite an interesting haul you have there.

Absolutely Andy, more that happy to send you anything i have that helps you out. We're all here to help each other  and like i said before i appreciate the time and effort you put into helping me date the Sekonda. I wondered the same also when its release year was. Just finished going through the ones that are labelled.  Also found a few calibers I've never heard of, the seller has slipped up, some high end watch staffs in there and also a few record 022k calibre to repair my DD, well chuffed. Still around 400 staff calibres to identify, unlikely i will get all of them, some are really old so I'm not expecting to be able to aquire the dimensions for all of them. 

[AndyHull]

@Neverenoughwatches I did a little more Sekonda research over my lunch hour today and turned up a bunch of Sekonda watch catalogs on Archive.org.

This one from 1968 shows a very similar watch with a slightly different Roman dial on page 10

https://archive.org/details/Sekonda_Catalog_1968/page/n9/mode/2up

I also found this link by translating Raketa Catalogue into Russian with Google translate.

"каталог часов Ракета" according to google translates Raketa Watch Catalaog.

https://ussr--watch-com.translate.goog/watch-catalogues/?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

So it seems these watches may just as likely to be from the late sixties as they are from the late eighties or early nineties.

I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is certainly... a thing.

One other thing I spotted, one of the Raketa catalog PDFDs called "Каталог часов Ракета, 1967-71 — Машприборинторг.pdf" lists models which it suggests are based on the 2609A but there is no mention of the 2609HA, so perhaps this pushes the date past 1971, but how far past, I have no idea. Of course they may simply have used the same catalog from 1967 to 1971 and whatever caliber was available during those years, without revising the catalog.

Edited November 14, 2022 by AndyHull

[Neverenoughwatches]

28 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

@Neverenoughwatches I did a little more Sekonda research over my lunch hour today and turned up a bunch of Sekonda watch catalogs on Archive.org.

This one from 1968 shows a very similar watch with a slightly different Roman dial on page 10

https://archive.org/details/Sekonda_Catalog_1968/page/n9/mode/2up

I also found this link by translating Raketa Catalogue into Russian with Google translate.

https://ussr--watch-com.translate.goog/watch-catalogues/?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

So it seems these watches may just as likely to be from the late sixties as they are from the late eighties or early nineties.

I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is certainly... a thing.

One other thing I spotted, one of the Raketa catalog PDFDs called "Каталог часов Ракета, 1967-71 — Машприборинторг.pdf" lists models which it suggests are based on the 2609A but there is no mention of the 2609HA, so perhaps this pushes the date past 1971, but how far past, I have no idea. Of course they may simply have used the same catalog from 1967 to 1971 and whatever caliber was available during those years, without revising the catalog.

Thanks Andy and thats interesting, as we both know research should come from more than one place as information is not always reliable. Yes maybe a good thing , i want this to be  my grandfather's watch more than my father's . And to know that a very old memory of it is accurate is my head.