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15 hours ago, markr said:

Today's haul. $1 $25 $20.  Not posting to brag but because of the lack of 404 watches on eBay.  10,000 people looking for deals on eBay.  How many are looking for watches in your neighborhood? I've found 2 Omegas 5 Longines Tones of gold retirement watches.  Trick is you have to ask if they have any old watches inside working or not.  They always forget about there watches.  You do have to go to lots of yard sales to get a watch but the hunt is the fun and I get outside and off the computer.  Good luck hunting.

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I'm guessing this being the 404 thread that you picked up the Omega's and Longines for peanuts and omitted to tell the owners their true worth! 

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1 hour ago, Pedro said:

I'm guessing this being the 404 thread that you picked up the Omega's and Longines for peanuts and omitted to tell the owners their true worth! 

They aren't worth a fortune, no one was robbed. How hard is it to google a branded item just to get an idea of its value?

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2 hours ago, Pedro said:

I'm guessing this being the 404 thread that you picked up the Omega's and Longines for peanuts and omitted to tell the owners their true worth! 

Correct.

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16 hours ago, Plato said:

They aren't worth a fortune, no one was robbed. How hard is it to google a branded item just to get an idea of its value?

I've picked up a Longines Quartz in poor repair and a few other "expensive" brands from ebay.

It is extremely unlikely you will find well maintained, high quality watches in the 404 price range, either on ebay or in the thrift shops or car boot sales,  but you will occasionally pick up something interesting (though invariably, not working).

You do see the occasional faux Rolex or whatever, but generally ebay is pretty good at filtering out the fakes and con merchants, however you do have to keep your wits about you. I have no qualms about buying a Longines or Omega or similar in poor repair and fixing it up. The seller had the opportunity to get it fixed, or fix it themselves, and chose instead to sell the item for someone else to repair.  Likewise with the gold case. It takes two seconds to look up hallmarks on the web, so if they don't, then I guess that is down to laziness.

Edited by AndyHull
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2 hours ago, AndyHull said:

I've picked up a Longines Quartz in poor repair and a few other "expensive" brands from ebay.

It is extremely unlikely you wont find well maintained, high quality watches in the 404 price range, either on ebay or in the thrift shops or car boot sales,  but you will occasionally pick up something interesting (though invariably, not working).

You do see the occasional faux Rolex or whatever, but generally ebay is pretty good at filtering out the fakes and con merchants, however you do have to keep your wits about you. I have no qualms about buying a Longines or Omega or similar in poor repair and fixing it up. The seller had the opportunity to get it fixed, or fix it themselves, and chose instead to sell the item for someone else to repair.  Likewise with the gold case. It takes two seconds to look up hallmarks on the web, so if they don't, then I guess that is down to laziness.

I think you have to be careful describing a person lazy because they know nothing about hallmarks or indeed watches. Most people know nothing about watches or what they are worth. I am no angel and have bought watches on eBay with a 'buy it now' listing because they would be snapped up in seconds by other buyers.  I  constantly monitor eBay for around 8 hours a day  (not easy and very boring) and consider it my job, and have often warned sellers with an auction or 'make an offer' listing that they are underselling their watch and pointed out to them their mistakes. However regarding yard sales and similar I think there is a fine line between grabbing a bargain and maybe taking advantage of people who are probably least able to afford it, indeed, why are the reasons  most people are having yard sales? Especially in these times. 

Edited by Pedro
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5 hours ago, Plato said:

They aren't worth a fortune, no one was robbed. How hard is it to google a branded item just to get an idea of its value?

Well that's okay then! Have you seen how much Omega watches are going for on eBay? Even broken ones with bit's missing?

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3 hours ago, markr said:

Correct.

If you notice the OP's original post they state "not posting to brag" and "retirement watches", (what could he mean?🤔! Gold!) And the killer of the all the quotes "the trick is you have to ask if they have any old watches inside working or not". Yes! I know exactly where you are coming from! Nobody got robbed! What tremendous fun the "hunt" is! 

"Yes we have this, it belonged to my father, A Speedmaster I think, he said it went to the moon! What do you think it's worth"? 

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6 hours ago, Plato said:

They aren't worth a fortune, no one was robbed. How hard is it to google a branded item just to get an idea of its value?

How do you know what they are worth or if anyone got robbed? You are also under the assumption that everyone has Google at their fingertips! They don't, especially the elderly or underclass who have no option but to raise money from yard sales.

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4 hours ago, AndyHull said:

I've picked up a Longines Quartz in poor repair and a few other "expensive" brands from ebay.

It is extremely unlikely you wont find well maintained, high quality watches in the 404 price range, either on ebay or in the thrift shops or car boot sales,  but you will occasionally pick up something interesting (though invariably, not working).

You do see the occasional faux Rolex or whatever, but generally ebay is pretty good at filtering out the fakes and con merchants, however you do have to keep your wits about you. I have no qualms about buying a Longines or Omega or similar in poor repair and fixing it up. The seller had the opportunity to get it fixed, or fix it themselves, and chose instead to sell the item for someone else to repair.  Likewise with the gold case. It takes two seconds to look up hallmarks on the web, so if they don't, then I guess that is down to laziness.

We are not talking about eBay! The seller did not have the opportunity to go down that avenue and had a yard sale. Two seconds to look up a hallmark on the web! You must have the fastest internet connection in the world!

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19 minutes ago, Pedro said:

How do you know what they are worth or if anyone got robbed? You are also under the assumption that everyone has Google at their fingertips! They don't, especially the elderly or underclass who have no option but to raise money from yard sales.

Look, if someone (regardless of their age, their internet access, or anything else) puts something up for sale, there is no moral obligation for a buyer to pay more because he may think it is worth more.  The seller most likely has the opportunity to have his stuff appraised but chose not to do so.  Buyers take chances (on ebay or at garage sales) and have to live with their buy decisions--there is risk on the buyer side.

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1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Look, if someone (regardless of their age, their internet access, or anything else) puts something up for sale, there is no moral obligation for a buyer to pay more because he may think it is worth more.  The seller most likely has the opportunity to have his stuff appraised but chose not to do so.  Buyers take chances (on ebay or at garage sales) and have to live with their buy decisions--there is risk on the buyer side

I disagree, if the buyer knows more than the seller of what the item is worth then they have a moral duty to inform the seller and split the profits. I am from England but one of the most noble things I have ever seen came from the USA. An episode of "American Pickers" in which they appraised a collection of circus advertising signs and then realised it was worth a lot more than the seller realised. When sold they split the profits with the seller. Maybe it's just me and that sort of thing is long gone, god help us all! 

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1 hour ago, markr said:

Yes I have been going down to the ghetto and stealing all the poor people's Speedmasters. 

Unfortunately your quotes which I have highlighted give you away! There is no escape from what you said! "The trick is"! You really should be more careful what you put online! 

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6 hours ago, Pedro said:

I disagree, if the buyer knows more than the seller of what the item is worth then they have a moral duty to inform the seller and split the profits. I am from England but one of the most noble things I have ever seen came from the USA. An episode of "American Pickers" in which they appraised a collection of circus advertising signs and then realised it was worth a lot more than the seller realised. When sold they split the profits with the seller. Maybe it's just me and that sort of thing is long gone, god help us all! 

If I genuinely thought I was conning a little old lady out of her life savings, then I would let her know. Equally having worked for a charity shop in my youth, I would let a charity seller know that they were under selling.

I'm not running a business, so I can afford to be generous with my time and my integrity, however if I had mouths to feed, and staff to pay, and the seller was another business, and most importantly,  assuming I was making a profit rather than massively ripping them off, then I would take the profit.

That, like it or not, is how business works.

Some would not make any distinction, adopting instead the  "All is fair in love, war and business." attitude, but I like to think I have a less ruthless moral code. To each their own however.
 

 

Edited by AndyHull
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One other thing that you need to consider in all of this is that the 404 club is interesting because of what turns up there.

Most of the watches are initially in a very sorry state, and most of them are turned from trash to treasure.

Very occasionally something more valuable turns up, but that too is almost invariably in a terrible state. The gold watch case I mentioned recently would most likely have been consigned to the bin, if I hadn't placed the only bid on it.

Likewise a "Seamaster" or whatever is worth what it it worth because if two things.

1) Perception of its value.

2) Its physical condition.

In reality if it is beaten up, missing its hands and balance and full of dirt, it is actually only worth its value as scrap metal, unless someone is willing to take the time and spend the money to restore it.

This is where the skills of this community shine.

Members can take what is basically 30 cents worth of scrap metal and turn it back in to something of value once more.

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Another thing that makes a watch valuable is its historic importance. As alluded to in previous comments, a Seamaster that has been to the moon, is worth more than one that has spent its life in a dusty safety deposit box. 

This is also one of the important things that make a watch, or indeed any item "collectable". A dress worn by a famous film star, is worth more than the same dress if it was only worn by your auntie Betty on her trip to Spain.

AsPurchased-l1600.thumb.jpg.da0f258d81c77fcbb958d95661f02767.jpg

With this in mind, here is an item of vast historic importance for you to all admire.... 😜
 

Dial5.thumb.jpg.11b60c68642d4976c70ca29bbd7186f1.jpg

.. and the Перестройка dial, imported as a jpg in case you have a hankering to build yourself a reproduction version (or indeed a wall clock with the same theme). 
 

The Design is (c) Slava watches, and the images themselves are (c) yours truly, so I would say, avoid commercial use.

Edited by AndyHull
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9 hours ago, Pedro said:

Unfortunately your quotes which I have highlighted give you away! There is no escape from what you said! "The trick is"! You really should be more careful what you put online! 

You'r right. I said the ''trick is you have to ask''.  now that I read it I realize how terrible that sounds.  The fact that you would only rob them of 50% of the value and I rob them of 90% makes you morally superior to me. My hat off to you my good man.  I will start to get my moral values from reality TV like you. I can only hope to do better in the future.  Thank you for setting me straight.

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This is a fascinating conversation here...

Pedro (not picking on you, just exploring your perspective as the asserter) is describing a frictionless market with perfect access to, willingness/ability to find, and willingness/ability to understand information. Additionally, Pedro is assuming people necessarily care that they might be flushing some value in the interest of time saved or ease. My parents are well to do, and my mother couldn't be bothered with something like a garage sale. She just drops everything she doesn't want off at Goodwill or what have you. I've seen her dump many many thousands of dollars worth of goods without the slightest care what they might be worth or any forgone revenue. The time spent figuring out what something is worth and dealing with it just isn't worth the value potentially gained to her. She has no desire to understand what something might be worth. To Pedro's point, buying a watch for even a dollar is infinitely greater than she would have otherwise received.

Additionally, I think there may be a cultural misunderstanding of what a garage sale is in the US... I don't know what a boot sale is, though as a car guy, I can infer that someone is selling something out of the trunk of their car. However, it has no further meaning to me, and I've never witnessed any such thing that didn't involve frozen meat, fireworks, or tamales at a construction site. A garage sale is NOT how poor people make money. If anything, it's the opposite. It's a way for people to unload massive quantities of junk they no longer want as a result of spring cleaning, or a pending move or something. Poor people come from miles around to buy things super cheap. My maternal grandmother was an horrific hoarder, and would troll garage sales like it was her job because she could buy things for pennies on the dollar. A decent TV will be $15 or something like that. A couch might be $20. If someone wanted to put in the effort to actually extract some sort of market value from these things, they wouldn't be having a garage sale.

There are instances and people who will research things, and put more... well... educated isn't the right word... sort of educated in the "know enough to be dangerous" sense of the concept... They'll search online for something, find something similar or an outstanding example of the same selling for a mint, and think their... '72 Super Beetle with a seized engine and rust to the windows is worth $50K and a night with the buyer's spouse because they saw a '53 museum quality example sell at some auction for around that. In reality it'll cost a few hundred to have it hauled off for low grade scrap metal. As a more easily relatable example of this, early in the pandemic, someone nearby had a garage sale, and my neighbor went to check it out. They had most of an L&R watch cleaning machine somehow. Since they didn't know what it was to begin with, they googled it, found the cost of... some really expensive version I guess, and decided it was worth a few grand. I believe everything that wasn't attached to the base was missing (or misidentified and tossed), and it had lived at least some years outdoors. It MIGHT have made a noise or something when turned on, but there was no way it was usable without a lot of time and money invested. Not a few $K, and probably not even a few hundred. When my neighbor showed me a photo and told me what they were asking, I didn't even bother going down there.

On the flip side, pedro's take comes from a more ethical perspective. Let's explore that a bit... My preferred ethical paradigm is Deontology. For simplicity, this particular conversation would boil down to "would the outcome be positive if everyone did this?". If everyone had a giant pile of stuff, some of it may or may not be worth actual money, and everyone else went around asking about specific items in each others' piles, and occasionally these items were worth more or less than one party realizes, would the outcome be positive or negative to society? I think the answer is that it's neutral. Everyone has their domains where they know a lot about some things, and not much about others. If I know that a particular computer keyboard is worth a ton of money, but don't recognize the name on the dial of a watch, I'll be able to pick computer peripherals up for free all day long, but I'll lose out on the watch. In the end, things sorta wash out at the societal level. If I try to take the harshest view, and assume that the seller in these scenarios full of market friction are losing out, we can't ignore that they're winning elsewhere. Not all transactions are of equal value, but the lower value transactions occur with far greater frequency across a much wider variety of goods... That's not to say there won't be imbalances at the micro level, but I'm not sure that can fully be attributed to the shortcomings of the question at play here...

Now, if someone asks if that Speedmaster is worth anything, and you say, "Nah, but I'll give you $5."... That's a different story entirely.

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I've just finished my own little bit of Перестройка, the literal meaning of which in Russian is apparently "reconstruction", or perhaps more precisely "restructuring".

RIMG0661.thumb.JPG.70d2cb7e270265177ff575ce9cfafe0e.JPG

In this particular case, it involved some component swapping from a couple of donor movements and a case back and retaining ring from a spare case. I actually picked up small collection if similar Slava movements (some automatics with quick date change, and some simpler manual wind ones), and a bunch of cases a while back and I suspect I have sufficient parts remaining to make at least two fully functional, cased 27 jewel automatics with a choice of Sekonda dials. That task will keep me amused during the long winter nights no doubt. 

 

image.thumb.png.102de15112e065f37da454351830ab64.png

As those who lived through the Перестройка reforms can no doubt testify, value and cost are not necessarily related.

This watch cost just slightly more than the 404 club rules allow, but in its current state, I value it much higher, as it was an interesting learning experience to trace its history and also to figure out which parts of which versions of this particular caliber are interchangeable and which are not.

If I did decide to flog it on ebay however I would never recover the supposed monetary value of the time I invested in fixing it.

Does this bother me?

Not one jot.

image.thumb.png.a4307abf245e3628a891d60363e7bebf.png

For me the value is in the experience, and from owning a fairly unique little watch, not in the pound notes, dollar bills or roubles I would get from offloading it to someone else.

Edited by AndyHull
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1 hour ago, AndyHull said:

I've just finished my own little bit of Перестройка, the literal meaning of which in Russian is apparently "reconstruction", or perhaps more precisely "restructuring".

RIMG0661.thumb.JPG.70d2cb7e270265177ff575ce9cfafe0e.JPG

In this particular case, it involved some component swapping from a couple of donor movements and a case back and retaining ring from a spare case. I actually picked up small collection if similar Slava movements (some automatics with quick date change, and some simpler manual wind ones), and a bunch of cases a while back and I suspect I have sufficient parts remaining to make at least two fully functional, cased 27 jewel automatics with a choice of Sekonda dials. That task will keep me amused during the long winter nights no doubt. 

 

image.thumb.png.102de15112e065f37da454351830ab64.png

As those who lived through the Перестройка reforms can no doubt testify, value and cost are not necessarily related.

This watch cost just slightly more than the 404 club rules allow, but in its current state, I value it much higher, as it was an interesting learning experience to trace its history and also to figure out which parts of which versions of this particular caliber are interchangeable and which are not.

If I did decide to flog it on ebay however I would never recover the supposed monetary value of the time I invested in fixing it.

Does this bother me?

Not one jot.

image.thumb.png.a4307abf245e3628a891d60363e7bebf.png

For me the value is in the experience, and from owning a fairly unique little watch, not in the pound notes, dollar bills or roubles I would get from offloading it to someone else.

Very nice...I will watch for one myself.  Am willing to pay more than 404 to have a watch like this

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On 7/31/2021 at 11:28 AM, spectre6000 said:

Here's a meta 404 for you... I wanted to post a screen shot of a 404 error message for the on-the-money win. I typed in random crap for a URL and got a domain registrar park page. I typed in even more randomer crap, and google actually just searched for it. The "404 Not Found" for the 404 could not be found...

Here you go

2021-08-03 10_43_10-Esslinger.com - Not Found — Mozilla Firefox.png

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On 8/2/2021 at 2:38 PM, markr said:

You'r right. I said the ''trick is you have to ask''.  now that I read it I realize how terrible that sounds.  The fact that you would only rob them of 50% of the value and I rob them of 90% makes you morally superior to me. My hat off to you my good man.  I will start to get my moral values from reality TV like you. I can only hope to do better in the future.  Thank you for setting me straight.

You're welcome, always happy to assist the wayward to choose the right path!

(American pickers currently showing on the Discovery channel).

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On 8/2/2021 at 4:49 PM, spectre6000 said:

This is a fascinating conversation here...

Pedro (not picking on you, just exploring your perspective as the asserter) is describing a frictionless market with perfect access to, willingness/ability to find, and willingness/ability to understand information. Additionally, Pedro is assuming people necessarily care that they might be flushing some value in the interest of time saved or ease. My parents are well to do, and my mother couldn't be bothered with something like a garage sale. She just drops everything she doesn't want off at Goodwill or what have you. I've seen her dump many many thousands of dollars worth of goods without the slightest care what they might be worth or any forgone revenue. The time spent figuring out what something is worth and dealing with it just isn't worth the value potentially gained to her. She has no desire to understand what something might be worth. To Pedro's point, buying a watch for even a dollar is infinitely greater than she would have otherwise received.

Additionally, I think there may be a cultural misunderstanding of what a garage sale is in the US... I don't know what a boot sale is, though as a car guy, I can infer that someone is selling something out of the trunk of their car. However, it has no further meaning to me, and I've never witnessed any such thing that didn't involve frozen meat, fireworks, or tamales at a construction site. A garage sale is NOT how poor people make money. If anything, it's the opposite. It's a way for people to unload massive quantities of junk they no longer want as a result of spring cleaning, or a pending move or something. Poor people come from miles around to buy things super cheap. My maternal grandmother was an horrific hoarder, and would troll garage sales like it was her job because she could buy things for pennies on the dollar. A decent TV will be $15 or something like that. A couch might be $20. If someone wanted to put in the effort to actually extract some sort of market value from these things, they wouldn't be having a garage sale.

There are instances and people who will research things, and put more... well... educated isn't the right word... sort of educated in the "know enough to be dangerous" sense of the concept... They'll search online for something, find something similar or an outstanding example of the same selling for a mint, and think their... '72 Super Beetle with a seized engine and rust to the windows is worth $50K and a night with the buyer's spouse because they saw a '53 museum quality example sell at some auction for around that. In reality it'll cost a few hundred to have it hauled off for low grade scrap metal. As a more easily relatable example of this, early in the pandemic, someone nearby had a garage sale, and my neighbor went to check it out. They had most of an L&R watch cleaning machine somehow. Since they didn't know what it was to begin with, they googled it, found the cost of... some really expensive version I guess, and decided it was worth a few grand. I believe everything that wasn't attached to the base was missing (or misidentified and tossed), and it had lived at least some years outdoors. It MIGHT have made a noise or something when turned on, but there was no way it was usable without a lot of time and money invested. Not a few $K, and probably not even a few hundred. When my neighbor showed me a photo and told me what they were asking, I didn't even bother going down there.

On the flip side, pedro's take comes from a more ethical perspective. Let's explore that a bit... My preferred ethical paradigm is Deontology. For simplicity, this particular conversation would boil down to "would the outcome be positive if everyone did this?". If everyone had a giant pile of stuff, some of it may or may not be worth actual money, and everyone else went around asking about specific items in each others' piles, and occasionally these items were worth more or less than one party realizes, would the outcome be positive or negative to society? I think the answer is that it's neutral. Everyone has their domains where they know a lot about some things, and not much about others. If I know that a particular computer keyboard is worth a ton of money, but don't recognize the name on the dial of a watch, I'll be able to pick computer peripherals up for free all day long, but I'll lose out on the watch. In the end, things sorta wash out at the societal level. If I try to take the harshest view, and assume that the seller in these scenarios full of market friction are losing out, we can't ignore that they're winning elsewhere. Not all transactions are of equal value, but the lower value transactions occur with far greater frequency across a much wider variety of goods... That's not to say there won't be imbalances at the micro level, but I'm not sure that can fully be attributed to the shortcomings of the question at play here...

Now, if someone asks if that Speedmaster is worth anything, and you say, "Nah, but I'll give you $5."... That's a different story entirely.

Well, that is definitely the best response post of any forum that I have ever read and agree with all of what you have said, especially "yard sales" as I believe that is an American phenomenon which you would have more understanding of than me. My problem was with the tone and wording of the original OP's post and if some people cannot see that then so be it. I make no apologies for my comments and stand by everything I said.

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On 8/2/2021 at 11:12 AM, AndyHull said:

If I genuinely thought I was conning a little old lady out of her life savings, then I would let her know. Equally having worked for a charity shop in my youth, I would let a charity seller know that they were under selling.

I'm not running a business, so I can afford to be generous with my time and my integrity, however if I had mouths to feed, and staff to pay, and the seller was another business, and most importantly,  assuming I was making a profit rather than massively ripping them off, then I would take the profit.

That, like it or not, is how business works.

Some would not make any distinction, adopting instead the  "All is fair in love, war and business." attitude, but I like to think I have a less ruthless moral code. To each their own however.
 

 

I would lend you a shovel but I see you already have one. Keep digging!

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