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Mainspring lubrication, manual and automatic


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8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I’m afraid I’m not convinced as these springs are quite brittle. Have you tried it?

Yes, for example the mainspring that I bought for the EB 8201 walk through needled a  bit of correction at the terminal. 

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Any particular technique to preserve its durability?

I don't think is needed, but check what annealing does. 

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Well, that’s good to know. Very insightful. I’m sure you belong in that category.

I believe that you and I are still learners in the art of repairing. Good to concentrate on that, not everything can be resolved by clicking on buy buttons. 

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11 hours ago, jdm said:

Yes, for example the mainspring that I bought for the EB 8201 walk through

I Googled "EB 8201" (site:watchrepairtalk.com EB 2801) but nothing came up. Can you please provide a link? I don't even know what an "EB 8201" is.

And while on the topic of links; as a service to my fellow members, I always try to include a link when I make a reference to something I've read or created on the WRT or elsewhere so that they don't have to spend their precious time on trying to find something that cost me so little to provide. And, it makes me feel good! ^_^

11 hours ago, jdm said:

check what annealing does. 

I must say, that's sounds like a pretty interesting idea. I will definitely try it. Thanks! Unfortunately, that will make me click a "buy button" or two as I'll be needing a spirit lamp and some methanol. I guess my "good repairer/watchmaker" score will take a hit, but if I can get that GR spring to work in my Orient it'll be worth it ;).

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16 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I Googled "EB 8201" (site:watchrepairtalk.com EB 2801) but nothing came up. Can you please provide a link? I don't even know what an "EB 8201" is.

And while on the topic of links; as a service to my fellow members, I always try to include a link when I make a reference to something I've read or created on the WRT or elsewhere so that they don't have to spend their precious time on trying to find something that cost me so little to provide. And, it makes me feel good! ^_^

I must say, that's sounds like a pretty interesting idea. I will definitely try it. Thanks! Unfortunately, that will make me click a "buy button" or two as I'll be needing a spirit lamp and some methanol. I guess my "good repairer/watchmaker" score will take a hit, but if I can get that GR spring to work in my Orient it'll be worth it ;).

Jdm's walkthrough titled " EB 8021 servicing"

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52 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

For any future readers, just click the link above and you won't have to search for it! I just love links! :biggrin:

Anyway, as far as I can see the otherwise excellent walk through doesn't contain a description of the correction of the mainspring, but if @jdmwants to tell us a bit more about it or have something to add I'd be an ardent reader!

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2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

, but if @jdmwants to tell us a bit more about it or have something to add I'd be an ardent reader!

Take small pliers in one hand, mainspring in the other, make an outward 3° bend about 3mm from the end. That is enough for a manual winding mainspring to positively engage its stop groove in the barrel.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/16/2020 at 6:38 AM, jdm said:

I don't think is needed, but check what annealing does.

In my case it destroyed the flexibility of the bridle completely, making it dead as a stone (tried it on another spring first). Perhaps I haven't got the right touch, but I'm more inclined to believe the alloy (whatever it is) simply can't withstand high temperatures. So, I simply formed the bridle to look as similar to the bridle of the Seiko/Orient spring as I could and applied a reasonable amount of Kluber P125 to the barrel wall. The result? Well, the power reserve diminished to its worst yet.

So, I'm giving up on the GR spring and will reinstall a used Seiko spring instead. Should have tried it sooner as perhaps the poor power reserve isn't related to the spring. Highly unlikely, yes, but I've learned to take nothing for granted servicing/repairing watches. Anyway, I'll report back to the thread once the Seiko spring is in the barrel.

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Did you mention at any point what amplitude you are achieving on a full wind?

Running duration can be affected by both the number of turns available from the spring, and the load presented by the train. For example, you could achieve 6 turns of the mainspring, but only be able to use 4 of those turns due to the load presented by the going train. 

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Thanks for your input @rodabod!

22 hours ago, rodabod said:

Did you mention at any point what amplitude you are achieving on a full wind?

Yes I did, but in a different thread. Images here and as you can see, no hiccups in the train.  My conclusion (but I guess I could be wrong even if I don't think so) is that the bridle of the GR2378X spring just isn't compatible with certain Seiko (cal. 7S36) and Orient (cal. 46E40, 46943, etc) calibres. The GR bridle simply doesn't exert enough pressure on the barrel wall. As noted previously it is thinner and lacks the introductory and concluding dent of the Seiko/Orient spring.

So, I've just installed an original but quite battered original Orient spring (the only one I was able to source on eBay) in the barrel. Preliminary results are a major improvement. The spring now slips after about 7 revolutions of the ratchet wheel compared to the 3.5-4 revolutions of the GR spring. Anyway, within a couple of days I should be able to report the actual power reserve measures in hours.

The greed of the watch manufacturers are refusing to freely supply parts to hobbyists. To me personally it's beginning to kill the fun and in the long run possibly the hobby :(

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23 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Anyway, within a couple of days I should be able to report the actual power reserve measures in hours.

Unfortunately, I sometimes have a personality trait like that of most Swedish politicians who live by the brilliant idea that: "if something is good it naturally follows that more of it must be better". You know, like taxes and immigration (and beer, and pressing on barrel lids with force).

So, last night I fully wound the spring only to discover in the morning that it had stopped. Wound it again and put it on my timing machine and the graph was all over the place (having been near perfect after the initial service). I suspect that I leaned way too heavily on the barrel lid and that it now interferes with the spring. I came to think of this as I assembled a Seiko barrel today (identical in design) and looking on the barrel from the side in my stereo microscope to make sure it was fully closed, I noticed, from memory, that the lid on the Orient had looked like it had somewhat "overflowed" the barrel, and then I remembered having pushed the lid hard, very hard. Probably because I missed hearing the click, and being stupid and lazy I really leaned on it, instead of having a look. Anyway, it's just a theory, but right now I'm so fed up with this problem that I'll place the watch in my watch box. Maybe I'll return to it some day, but it will probably be a long time before I touch a Seiko or an Orient again. For some, watch repairing is challenging indeed. In my inner I see Trevor Philips from the video game GTA 5 taunting me with the words: "You look like someone who struggle with simple tasks".

What about Miyota movements!? Do they use the same type of barrel and spring as Seiko?

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  • 3 months later...

I know that the main spring barrel inside wall is lubricated - does the actual main spring itself need to be lubricated/oiled along it's length, if so how is this done ?  at a car boot sale I picked up a plastic storage box with a complete (so I'm told) movement inside I'm going to try and assemble it, hoping to learn something along the way - figuring out which bits go where will a challenge for a newbe like me, the person that dissassembled it may have given me a head start - looks like parts that go close together are grouped together in separate compartments.

20201111_194724.jpg

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Well a challenge and no mistake, wish you well,  If the spring is from an automatic and has a bridle the barrel wall is greased in approx three places to allow the spring to slip on the full wind, the spring its self when installed I have seen advocated three drops of oil on the spring .that will capilliary spread through the spring when wound.  good luck.

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An interesting little puzzle for you to solve indeed.

A quick once over of your pic suggests that you may be missing the set lever and set lever screw but they may be hiding, otherwise it looks like everything else is there, including quite a lot of dead wild life!!!

A close scrutiny of the main plate would be a good idea to try and find any identifying marks to assist sourcing any bits that need to be found, also check that the balance pivots (and indeed all of the pivots) are intact.

As this is a manual winding movement you don't need to grease the barrel wall, in fact leave that dry. If you intend to reuse the main spring then a very thin coating of oil wiped over it would be a good idea. Apply the oil to some watch paper, fold the paper over the spring so that you can grip it with a pair of tweezers between the paper, and gently pull the spring through the oiled paper.

To stand the best chance of getting the movement running convincingly I would look to replacing the main spring, but in the first instance, and especially if it's just an exercise in reassembly, go with what you've got and replace at a later date if you want the challenge of getting it to run well rather than just run.

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Thanks for the replies they are much appreciated -  I did wonder about the main spring but as the dial is not in great condition I don't intend to turn this into a working watch it is not that important.
I have though made some progress in the last 3 or 4 hours, the position and orientation of the main central gear is obvious, I think it is for the minute hand - one of the gears in the train has an extended shaft so this goes in the position for the seconds sub dial so the third gear must go in between - the last position can only be for the escapement wheel, it took a while to work out which way up the escapement wheel and middle gear went and after a 30-40min struggle the top bridge finally dropped on and the gears all meshed, after spending some time working out which way to install the spring and spring winding arbor into the barrel, I found that I couldn't juggle the main spring barrel into place and should have installed the main spring barrel first. I guessing there are plenty of forum members that have been there and done that.
  I'm at the stage where the gear train is assembled, main spring and the two gears that go with it are on and the pawl that holds the main spring in tension is in place, but I can't find a spring for the pawl, there is a very small bit of bent wire only a few mm long - it may be the spring I'll have to study it for a while and see if it will fit. I'll give it a rest for now it's getting late and I don't want to push my luck.
There are no identifying marks on the movement - just 15 jewels swiss made, the dial is marked GALA - I suspect it is a radium dial, it does not glow after being in bright sunlight for 10  or so mins.  I did spend a whole evening the other day on bidfun-db looking at movements but there is just so many I gave up.

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 I spent the best part of 3 or so hrs trying to fit the balance wheel, it appeared stiff not wanting to oscillate, at first I assumed that I hadn't seated the pivots in the bearings and I removed and refitted it many times, on the odd occasion it appeared a bit freer and more likely to oscillate but still not right, the balance cock alignment pins are tight I thought maybe the balance cock was not going down square, maybe I had broken one or both of the pivots, not sure how firmly I need to press down the balance cock onto the alignment pins, I removed the balance cock and let it hang from the hair spring as I had observed in videos and could see the pivots were still intact, then I noticed that the end of the hair spring projects past spring stud around 3 or 4 mm and a few coils of the hair spring were looped over the projection, I looped them back with a fine wire but every time I placed the balance into the movement one or two turns of the hair spring found a way to loop them selves over the free end of hair spring. Removed again and while the balance was again hanging once more by the hair spring I bent the end of the hair spring up, refitted the balance, no coils looped over this time, a few turns of the winder and away it went, I'm amazed, I don't expect it to keep proper time but it has been a great learning tool for me, I'll continue and finish up the assembly need to do a bit with the keyless works something is not quite right there and work out how to fit the click spring.

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1064456241_Screenshot2020-11-14193308.thumb.jpg.b7e7e2cfe7648bf783118377d6060725.jpgHere is a the best pic I got of the hair spring issue I had - a few of the coils kept hooking them selves over the protruding end of the hair spring see arrow, took me a long time to see it - my intoduction to reassembling a movement was I think mostly just luck.  Video link to the movement running -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKEbzNDsB_4&feature=youtu.be

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  • 4 weeks later...

I fitted a new mainspring to a Seiko 4006A Bell-matic, after applying  a liberal coating of Moebius 8213 to the barrel wall.

The barrel wall looked to be in good condition. 

When fully wound, the amplitude is OK (250+) but I'm getting <24h reserve (listed as 42h). The mainspring can be let-down in only two turns. 

How do I reduce slippage  :

  • less grease (I'm not sure if more or less grease reduces slip) ?
  • roughen the barrel wall ?

Or is it likely to be a faulty spring ?

 

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11 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I fitted a new mainspring to a Seiko 4006A Bell-matic, after applying  a liberal coating of Moebius 8213 to the barrel wall.

The barrel wall looked to be in good condition. 

When fully wound, the amplitude is OK (250+) but I'm getting <24h reserve (listed as 42h). The mainspring can be let-down in only two turns. 

How do I reduce slippage  :

  • less grease (I'm not sure if more or less grease reduces slip) ?
  • roughen the barrel wall ?

Or is it likely to be a faulty spring ?

 

Question: did you also lubricate your new mainspring? I've seen such cases when someone added 8200 ? which spread all over and mainspring would almost instantly slip.

Faulty? Also possible, but not very likely. Is it the right size? What is the GR#? GR2378X?

Mainspring barrel - is it brass? What is ID ? 10.5mm?

You may also try 8217 (anti-sliding grease, provides powerful breaking).

Edited by Poljot
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