Cleaning and oiling balance and jewels

[Nucejoe]

19 minutes ago, SparkyLB said:

Thanks for the tip.  No, I haven't tried that.  I'm fairly new to this, and this is the first time I've disassembled an Incabloc.  It's going to take some practice getting it back together.  I'm not discouraged by repeated failures, I'm building muscle memory.  Thankfully I've not lost any parts on this one task, at least.  I got as far as oiling the stone, but the drop was large enough to cover the whole stone.  It looked like a Jiffypop!  I wonder if you remember those, perhaps I'm just showing my age.  I put it away, under the cover, and will wait until tomorrow. 

 

I appreciate you guys. 

Have you looked into automatiic oilers? you can oil when the jewel assembly is in the mainplate and it dispenses what I think is the perfect amount of oil, or you can dispense twice or more .

[JohnR725]

looking at the discussion I thought I would make some observations. so starting off with tweezers everyone makes the assumption that they're all the same. A lot of times people new to watch repair think the tweezers have to be super delicate super tiny fine tips which are really bad for watch repair. Super tiny tips can be good for fixing hairsprings. one of the most important characteristics of your tweezers and I'm attaching an image gently squeezed together the jaws come together parallel. Really important for holding round things.

that a link to a good bad video. May be bad isn't quite the right word. For instance if I was cleaning a watch like this I leave the balance in whereas everything else comes off. So the balance stays on the main plate with its bridge and the jewel assemblies come out. Make sure you remember to put the springs back down so they don't go anywhere undesirable. Then the jewel assemblies will clean just fine in the cleaning machine the balance is protected the hairspring is protected. so he shows them in and of course his watches running which it really shouldn't be makes it a lot harder when it's running. Plus the jewels clean better if they're not in.

So a difference between the procedure that you've outlined above is after you put your drop of oil on the end the stone what's left of the oil on the end of the oiler is  applied to the hole of the hole jewel and yes he does point that out in the video.

if you take the jewel assemblies out for cleaning just remember there probably not exactly the same sometimes. It's usually best if you keep the top and bottom separate.

https://youtu.be/KpII8WDZnYQ

other thing is helpful to have or equivalent. so for instance at the link below because it was the first one I found a small jar of rinse typically referred to as hairspring rinse.  

http://www.stsupply.com/tools/cleaning-polishing/other-cleaning-supplies/one-dip-hairspring-cleaner-2-oz.html

then the suggestion of automatic oiler above? I was at a lecture once where the person brought up using the automatic oiler and he would a sold a dozen of them on the spot if he had them after he explained how wonderful they were for oiling. Unless of course you've just practiced a lot like I have and I'll still do it the old-fashioned way. I'm attaching a link notice they even have a drawing of it in use. The advantage is the black one of the smallest diameter one will go through the hole jewel assembly. So everything is nice and clean you can apply the oil and as a bonus I don't remember how to do it but you can actually suck oil back out if you get too much.

https://www.esslinger.com/bergeon-7718-1a-automatic-watch-and-clock-oiler/

then quantities of lubrication have changed with time. I'm attaching a PDF page 17 you are 30% would be considered unacceptable. 

 

cousinsuk.com Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication-4.pdf

[HSL]

I think @JohnR725 rapps the most of it together in a good way. I only can give a couple of links from the same school on here.
The first is a lecture on this subject and the second of the washing process with the balance in place.

Cap jewel cleaning lecture.

And the second shows a basic service and the oiling and cleaning.

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by HSL
Swinglish

[Nucejoe]

When it comes to picking up the chaton-jewel plus end stone,  if you don't feel it may fly off your tweezers, then the method set forth by JohnR and HSL is preffered specially that it is scholastic and perhaps standard method. In case the chaton and end stone fly off, you can find the chaton- jewel assembly with a magnet, but not the end stone which is very likely to have seperated from the end stone and specially so upon landing, a pain you may face by the scholastic method. Chances of loosing the end stone is minimal when attached to Rodico.

Sparky; Perhaps your tweezers aren't most suitable type for handling stones, surely you agree that suitable tools make lots of difference. 

Regards

[StuartBaker104]

The lecturer in that cap jewel oiling video has super steady hands and great control. If I repaired watches all day every day then I might develop that dexterity.

Meanwhile, I use one of these (the smallest size) to hold cap jewels while I oil them https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/jewel-picker-upper-with-silicone-tips

I put the hole jewel in the movement plate then pop the oiled cap jewel on top and tease it off the picker with fine tweezers. Similar to Nucejoe with rodico, but I find it easier to control.

[Nucejoe]

3 minutes ago, StuartBaker104 said:

The lecturer in that cap jewel oiling video has super steady hands and great control. If I repaired watches all day every day then I might develop that dexterity.

Meanwhile, I use one of these (the smallest size) to hold cap jewels while I oil them https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/jewel-picker-upper-with-silicone-tips

I put the hole jewel in the movement plate then pop the oiled cap jewel on top and tease it off the picker with fine tweezers. Similar to Nucejoe with rodico, but I find it easier to control.

Speaking of super hands, SStakoff recently posted a video working on an eta 7750 a walkthrough I beleive.  WOW, that is super hand. I enjoyed the video for the art of super handling with tweezers so much, I lost the walkthrough and myself in the process. WOW stunning. 

sstakoff 

[SparkyLB]

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

looking at the discussion I thought I would make some observations. so starting off with tweezers everyone makes the assumption that they're all the same. A lot of times people new to watch repair think the tweezers have to be super delicate super tiny fine tips which are really bad for watch repair. Super tiny tips can be good for fixing hairsprings. one of the most important characteristics of your tweezers and I'm attaching an image gently squeezed together the jaws come together parallel. Really important for holding round things.

that a link to a good bad video. May be bad isn't quite the right word. For instance if I was cleaning a watch like this I leave the balance in whereas everything else comes off. So the balance stays on the main plate with its bridge and the jewel assemblies come out. Make sure you remember to put the springs back down so they don't go anywhere undesirable. Then the jewel assemblies will clean just fine in the cleaning machine the balance is protected the hairspring is protected. so he shows them in and of course his watches running which it really shouldn't be makes it a lot harder when it's running. Plus the jewels clean better if they're not in.

So a difference between the procedure that you've outlined above is after you put your drop of oil on the end the stone what's left of the oil on the end of the oiler is  applied to the hole of the hole jewel and yes he does point that out in the video.

if you take the jewel assemblies out for cleaning just remember there probably not exactly the same sometimes. It's usually best if you keep the top and bottom separate.

https://youtu.be/KpII8WDZnYQ

other thing is helpful to have or equivalent. so for instance at the link below because it was the first one I found a small jar of rinse typically referred to as hairspring rinse.  

http://www.stsupply.com/tools/cleaning-polishing/other-cleaning-supplies/one-dip-hairspring-cleaner-2-oz.html

then the suggestion of automatic oiler above? I was at a lecture once where the person brought up using the automatic oiler and he would a sold a dozen of them on the spot if he had them after he explained how wonderful they were for oiling. Unless of course you've just practiced a lot like I have and I'll still do it the old-fashioned way. I'm attaching a link notice they even have a drawing of it in use. The advantage is the black one of the smallest diameter one will go through the hole jewel assembly. So everything is nice and clean you can apply the oil and as a bonus I don't remember how to do it but you can actually suck oil back out if you get too much.

https://www.esslinger.com/bergeon-7718-1a-automatic-watch-and-clock-oiler/

then quantities of lubrication have changed with time. I'm attaching a PDF page 17 you are 30% would be considered unacceptable. 

 

cousinsuk.com Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication-4.pdf 1.28 MB · 2 downloads

Thank you so much, JohnR725.  I didn't "cheap out," but got a set of 5 Stella tweezers on eBay.  The tips of the ones I've used the most, most certainly do NOT come together like you photographed.  I have to look back in Mark's videos and refresh myself on dressing tweezers on stone.  I've not done that yet, and I need to. 

My springs are not of the lyre type.  They are Novodiac springs.  I had to turn a dowel to 1.4mm and put a .9mm hole in the middle to gently twist the springs back home.  After the "hard" part of oiling and reassembly, I have those to look forward to.  These are all new operations to me, and I envision the day when I'm well-versed in these actions.  Today, alas I am not.

I do have the upper (cock) and lower (mainplate) Incabloc assemblies separated and labeled. 

I'm happy to report I am familiar with what the man said in the oiling video.  Problem is, I can not yet do it.    He does bring some good tips, like getting a secure grip on the square shouldered part, and picking up and dropping the the hole jewel parallel to the end stone.  I'm terrified of securing the end stone with tweezers as he does, but that will change. 

The .pdf is wonderful.  I've saved it for reference.  When you mention the 33% as incorrect, when I look at the pictures on p. 17, I believe the sizes and percentages they give are "the bubble" with the end stone back in place.  On Mark's video, he says a drop about 1/3 the diameter of the end stone should be deposited to achieve that 50% bubble.  Am I misunderstanding something?

An automatic oiler is definitely in my future, but I just got a bench, so I'll be waiting a bit. 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by SparkyLB

[SparkyLB]

Complete.  At risk of setting too low a bar, I didn't make things worse. 

Before:

After:

I found success with the bit of rodico at the end of the screwdriver.  I found I could rest the bottoms of my fists on the table and manipulate the end stone on the screwdriver and the oiler in the other hand. 

Under the rodico-laden screwdriver is the little implement I turned on the lathe from dowel rod to install the fiddly Novodiac springs. 

 

I'm certain I over-oiled the movement.  I'll tear it down again and rebuild (but NOT the Incabloc assy's), lubricating less and see if that gets this 6497.1 closer to accurate.  Before the teardown, dial-down would cause the watch to stop.  Not much improvement there.  The watch doesn't stop, but timographer goes back and forth to "detecting beat" and an amplitude of 160°.  I have not checked endshake before.  I will check it next time. 

I have a lot to practice.  You guys are a tremendous help. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by SparkyLB

[Nucejoe]

10 hours ago, StuartBaker104 said:

The lecturer in that cap jewel oiling video has super steady hands and great control. If I repaired watches all day every day then I might develop that dexterity.

Meanwhile, I use one of these (the smallest size) to hold cap jewels while I oil them https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/jewel-picker-upper-with-silicone-tips

I put the hole jewel in the movement plate then pop the oiled cap jewel on top and tease it off the picker with fine tweezers. Similar to Nucejoe with rodico, but I find it easier to control.

Thanks for sharing stuart, that silicone tip is a must have.

[JohnR725]

53 minutes ago, SparkyLB said:

omplete.  At risk of setting too low a bar, I didn't make things worse

before tearing it down if you're learning at like to do something?

First off I need a reminder ofwhere did the watch come from and what was the condition in at the beginning and was your before time graph for of that in other words before you worked on it? Then were you look at the after which is having an issue then you can taken apart and practice again

[SparkyLB]

Sorry, John--not sure what the first sentence is saying. 

It's an ETA 6497-1 movement and not a watch.  Bought it "new" on eBay, but the number of minor scratches on the mainplate suggests otherwise.  It appears to be in like new condition.  No screws showed any signs of abuse.   

Yes, the "before" picture right after I received it in the mail and wound it up.  The "after" picture is after disassembly, cleaning and lubrication.  I don't have a watch-cleaning machine, so I clean everything (not screws) in naptha, dip in isopropyl alcohol and puff dry on tissue paper.  I use Nucejoe's white paper and naptha method for cleaning end stones.      

I'm going 100% by Mark's courses, 1-3.  I'm also doing some reading.  I have "Practical Watchmaking" by Daniels arriving in about 3 days.  This is a hobby for me, and perhaps something I'll do after retirement to keep the brain occupied. 

BTW, with all the posts I neglected to thank HSL for the videos, and StuartBaker104 for those great silicone tools.  I'll probably get some of those.  If jewels stick to a clean tweezers, silicone has got to be like a magnet, I'd guess. 

[JohnR725]

sometimes dictation software sucks for doing anything as it changes how things are worded.

so the before image definitely has a problem doesn't it? I've seen the Chinese pocket watch movements and they look pretty decent at least the ones I've looked at so your before definitely has an issue.

a minor problem with aggressive cleaning of the end stones. Originally they were surface treated and aggressively cleaning removes that. On the other hand if the watches been serviced multiple of times that also takes off the surface treatment. 

then for using the timing machine you really need a procedure. so typically wind the watch up let it run about 30 minutes place it on the timing machine. Allow about 30 seconds between changing positions and at least 30 seconds in whatever position your timing in. Multiple position timekeeping is best at the minimum dial up or dial down and this is basically a wristwatch crown down. Then the real test is wait 24 hours and redo the timing procedure but of course don't wind the watch up see how it runs 24 hours later.

then I'm attaching an image I circled something that shouldn't be there. You should be able to speed the watch up a little bit and put the watch in beat.

 

[nickelsilver]

Fyi the lift angle for 6497 is 44.

[SparkyLB]

 

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

sometimes dictation software sucks for doing anything as it changes how things are worded.

so the before image definitely has a problem doesn't it? I've seen the Chinese pocket watch movements and they look pretty decent at least the ones I've looked at so your before definitely has an issue.

a minor problem with aggressive cleaning of the end stones. Originally they were surface treated and aggressively cleaning removes that. On the other hand if the watches been serviced multiple of times that also takes off the surface treatment. 

then for using the timing machine you really need a procedure. so typically wind the watch up let it run about 30 minutes place it on the timing machine. Allow about 30 seconds between changing positions and at least 30 seconds in whatever position your timing in. Multiple position timekeeping is best at the minimum dial up or dial down and this is basically a wristwatch crown down. Then the real test is wait 24 hours and redo the timing procedure but of course don't wind the watch up see how it runs 24 hours later.

then I'm attaching an image I circled something that shouldn't be there. You should be able to speed the watch up a little bit and put the watch in beat.

 

Thank you, John.  I changed the position from dial up to crown down and that caused that blip.  See below. 

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Fyi the lift angle for 6497 is 44.

Thank you.  I've reset the lift angle to 44.  That certainly changed things.  The amplitude went up, predictably, and the movement is closer to accurate. 

I have an issue where the balance stops in the dial down position.  I found several threads with excellent advice, and will begin to identify if it's a bent pivot, poorly oiled end stones,  or any other list of many things.  I will begin to address that hopefully today. 

 

BTW, I purchased the three different sized "jeweler picker uppers" from Cousins.  First time buying from across the pond.  Thank you, Stuart!

Lastly, I should mention I did not disassemble the barrel.  After 19 hours, here's the result:

I certainly don't have isochronism.  I will pull up my britches and do this today.  I have a mainspring winder, but I'm reluctant to use it.  I've watched Mark's videos on it, and I'm going to do it.  I think it's fairly easily replaceable should the unthinkable happen.  Fold a tissue paper LIGHTLY grease both sides for the entire length and reinstall.  I suppose one has to locate the hole in the end and align it with the hook on the periphery on the inside wall of the barrel.  Here goes. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by SparkyLB

[VWatchie]

On 5/17/2020 at 7:37 AM, JohnR725 said:

So everything is nice and clean you can apply the oil and as a bonus I don't remember how to do it but you can actually suck oil back out if you get too much.

I found it too difficult and time consuming to oil by hand as I most often failed and had to re-clean and retry over and over, and in my experience Rodico just wouldn't suffice to remove the oil. So, I got myself a Bergeon automatic oiler 1A (my video review here) and it has made the procedure a lot easier even if it is not failsafe. The eccentric screw on the oiler has to be adjusted very precisely to get the right amount of oil, but most of the time I only have to adjust it if the cap jewel is significantly larger or smaller than the cap jewels that I usually do.

Anyway, being able to suck the the oil back out if you get too much would be very convenient. So, if anyone knows how to please enlighten us!

Perhaps doing the procedure in reverse is the trick!? That is, place the needle (after having been dried in pith wood) in the hole, push the button while lowering the needle into the hole and then lift the oiler up. If no one knows I think I'll try that.

On 5/16/2020 at 9:13 PM, SparkyLB said:

I know the end stone must be spotless, oiled to about 33% in the center with 9010 on the flat side;

The only "watch school" I ever attended was Mark Lovick's watchrepairlessons.com, and as I remember it Mark recommends covering between 50 % and 70 % of the cap jewel surface. I'm curious to know where you learned about the 33 % and the arguments for it. I certainly don't know if there's a wrong and a right here. Perhaps anything between 33% and 70 % works equally well?

[SparkyLB]

Hi, VWatchie.  You and I attended the same (only) "watch school," and I'm going by memory.  If it serves; Mark states the drop should be about 1/3 of the diameter of the stone.  Then, when put together, the resulting "bubble" observed will be approximately 50% to 70% when viewed through the end jewel looking down at the holed jewel in the chaton.  At some point I'll rewatch that video and report back, unless you beat me to it.  I'm very grateful the videos are available for life.  Mark put A LOT of work into the production of those superior videos.

Edited May 23, 2020 by SparkyLB

[SparkyLB]

Found it.  Mark says, "Aim to cover roughly 30% of the stone's surface, but no more."  I took a screenshot from the video showing his perfectly centered drop.  I've done that 50 times now it seems.  My "drop" usually looks more like a lightning bolt, but I'm improving greatly. 

 

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, SparkyLB said:

Found it.  Mark says, "Aim to cover roughly 30% of the stone's surface, but no more."  I took a screenshot from the video showing his perfectly centered

I wonder where I got the 50 % to 70 % from... Thanks for the reminder! 

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, SparkyLB said:

Then, when put together, the resulting "bubble" observed will be approximately 50% to 70% when viewed through the end jewel looking down at the holed jewel in the chaton

Yes, that’s where I got it from! Mark says 50 % to a maximum of 70 % of the cap jewel’s diameter when viewed “looking down at the holed jewel in the chaton” and that’s how I inspect my oiling as I always use my automatic oiler.

[HSL]

28 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I wonder where I got the 50 % to 70 % from

That is actually the correct amount when the oil has expanded by the capilary forces, so when you inspect the jewel assembled and ready it should have spread to that extent.
There is some good advice in the AWCI pages, they show a nice picture of this effect. (And many others with good illustrations)

https://www.awci.com/watchmaking-excellen/cap-jewel-preparation/

[Lc130]

I've not seen one of these before.  The bottom jewel is inside a spring that I can turn inside it's recess but won't come out easily.  Does it need to be removed for cleaning?

Thank you

Charlie

[JGrainger]

I've seen these in pictures but don't know anything about them. I'd start by seeing if the jewel comes out with Rodico (but don't try forcing it). Depending how you're cleaning the parts, I'd guess it may be practical to leave it in place - as long as the two jewels are separate then the cleaning liquid should be able to do it's job (I'm guessing you're going to have it in a basket or jar capable of not letting it escape).

Hopefully someone who's used to these will come along in a bit.

[Lc130]

Thank you.  As it turned out, the other assembly fell out of the balance cock.  So, I suspect the plate assembly will separate in the ultrasound.

 

 

[Marc]

They should come out relatively easily

[Bonzer]

I normally clean all watch parts except the balance in a jar of Naptha in an ultrasonic. I normally carefully 'swish' the balance in essence of renata but I feel this doesn't really clean the pivots and hairspring very well.

Is it advisable or inadvisable to remove the cap jewels, refit the balance to the mainplate and buzz it in an ultrasonic for 10 mins?

Edited May 20, 2021 by Bonzer