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Why does the rate start to rush when I work out?


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1 hour ago, rodabod said:

Do you not have another mechanical watch that you can compare to?

 

Indeed, and not just one, but several. How many, you may ask. Well, more than I dare count...:lol:

Anyway, good idea and the thought had occurred to me. Next work out I'll bring along one of my ETA 2824-2s or a Vostok 2415. It shall be interesting.

Edited by VWatchie
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So, today I wore my trusted Amphibian "Scuba Dude" housing a Vostok cal. 2416 while working out tossing my arms around while jogging and walking. It's basically my "beater watch" and I've never serviced it or regulated it but it pretty consistently gains about 17 second per day during normal use. However, during my workout session it, just like the ETA 2772, starts to rush. In this case to about 222 seconds per day. So, I now feel pretty convinced that @saswatch88 was spot on.

Anyway, I'll make a final test with my most prestigious movement in a Hamilton Khaki case; a recently serviced 2824-2 with 0.00 ms B.E, amplitude around 310 degrees dial up and dial down and about 280 degrees in all other positions, and a daily (normal wear) rate of +1.5 seconds.

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Are you saying they gain the full couple hundred second just for the duration of the workout? Or are you extrapolating the amount of time gained during your work out to a day? If so around how many seconds do you gain just for the duration of the workout?

The reason I suggested the test is to make sure it's just knocking and not any other problem like isochronism or hairspring sticking. If the rate doesn't fluctuate significantly before the movement starts knocking then your problem is that you're causing your watches to knock. If it does than it's another problem. 

If it's indeed only knocking then depending on how aggressive your movements are, the duration of your workout, and amount of seconds gained during workout it could be normal. Especially on higher amplitude watches if they are subjected to certain repeated aggressive movements they will knock and you will gain a whole bunch of time. All my watches gain anywhere from 3-5 seconds just from vigorously towel drying my hair.

Edited by CaptCalvin
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I was thinking of another test to try which would be remove your watch 12 hours before you exercise. this way the watch is still running still has enough power to run and you're unlikely to generate enough force to wind it all the way back up tight during your exercising and then you can determine whether it's the mainspring being an issue or something else.

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So, the result from my best performing movement, a newly serviced ETA 2824-2 running perfectly, is in. During my workout the extrapolated rate goes up to 252 seconds per day.That is, during my 40 minutes of work out (walking, jogging, running) it gains 7 seconds.

In each test I have manually fully wound these automatic watches (ETA 2772, Vostok 2416, and ETA 2824-2) 12 to 18 hours before doing my workout and not wearing them in between. I should also mention that during normal everyday use of these watches the rate is very consistent only varying a few seconds depending on my normal everyday activity. 

7 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

If it's indeed only knocking then depending on how aggressive your movements are, the duration of your workout, and amount of seconds gained during workout it could be normal.

I think you're spot on.

7 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

All my watches gain anywhere from 3-5 seconds just from vigorously towel drying my hair.

Well, I got rid of my hair, or rather my hair got rid of me, years ago so I would only be able to simulate such a "test", and that would make me feel really silly :lol:

I think we can now pretty safely conclude that mechanical watches in general are affected by quick changes in gravity. I'm pretty sure that would include prestigious tool watches from Rolex, but if anyone wants to send me their Submariner or Explorer for a workout I'd be happy to take it out for a test.

This, IMO, absolutely gorgeous "STOWA Flieger DIN Professional" (unfortunately way to big) is advertised as "in no way affected by any physical stresses and strains in air traffic". I don't know if that includes the Swedish designed and built fighter jet SAAB Gripen NG, but in that case I'd want one ^_^

Edited by VWatchie
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  • 9 months later...

I took my only, and fairly recently serviced, Seiko out for a brisk walk and arm swinging today. To my surprise the rate wasn't affected one bit. It's a Seiko 5 Sports housing a cal. 7s36b (image of it here). I am as intrigued as I am pleasantly surprised! If you've followed this thread you will know that all ETAs and Vostoks I've tested have all been affected quite a bit. That is, gaining quite a bit of time when subjected to my exercise. I noticed that the ETAs and the Vostok have their balance located around 12 o'clock whereas the Seiko has it's balance located near 9 o'clock. I wonder if that possibly could have some bearing on this...

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4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I took my only, and fairly recently serviced, Seiko out for a brisk walk and arm swinging today. To my surprise the rate wasn't affected one bit.

What would be interesting to see with your watch is a time plot. Another way to look at timing information. Then you wind your watch all the way up as tight as you can get it and then run the time plot and see how intense amplitude in other words just before the automatic slips if you could get that. Then run the time plot for 24 hours and see what effect amplitude has on timekeeping.

This is where regulator pins are bad for timekeeping. If they hairspring isn't centered between the pins you can get issues with amplitude. If the pins are too far apart there will be issues. Change the shape of the balance pivots bike around the ends you tend to get too much amplitude all kinds of weird things can happen for timekeeping.

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5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I took my only, and fairly recently serviced, Seiko out for a brisk walk and arm swinging today. To my surprise the rate wasn't affected one bit. It's a Seiko 5 Sports housing a cal. 7s36b (image of it here).

That is good but not all Seiko are like that. See for example the topic below. The author initially blamed the mainspring, then focus moved on the escapement as in mis-locking etc, in the end the matter did not progress further.

Personally I am happy to accept the fact that when a watch is subjected to external forces like accelerations and vibrations, then the motion of the balance wheel becomes driven not only anymore by the harmonic of hairspring and the impulse pin, so it will spin more and faster.

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7 hours ago, Michael1962 said:

Ok. I’ll bite. How do you know it goes to 400 seconds per day when you are exercising unless you have it mounted on your timeframe at the same time?

I use a simple iPhone app named WatchTracker. What it does is extrapolate the rate between two data points. For example, lets say the first data point is:

12th April 2021 12:00, +10.0 s

and the second data point is:

12th April 2021 12:45, +22.5 s

The app can then calculate the daily rate for that 0.75h period: (22.5s - 10.0s) / 0.75h * 24h = 400 seconds.

Of course, the rate will vary during the exercise so it is an average.

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  • 1 year later...
On 7/1/2020 at 11:01 PM, VWatchie said:

So, I have two questions:
a) Why does my watch start to rush when I work out, swinging my arms, and
b) Is there anything that can be done to fix it?
 

On 7/2/2020 at 7:52 AM, saswatch88 said:

A: because laws of physics do exist inside of a watch escapement. Vigorous movement will add force to the balance wheel, causing it to store more energy and run faster. The amount of energy stored will depend on the duration of the activity...and that will determine how long it takes for the additional force to be expensed and return back to normal rate.

B: nothing you can do its the laws of physics at work.

I came to think of this thread as I have just recently serviced a Vostok 2431 (my service walkthrough here). After the service, it runs really beautifully, that is, until I take it for a brisk walk, swinging my arms. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I used a little too much braking grease in the barrel, which of course causes the mainspring to slip a bit too late. This means there is the risk of re-banking and that the movement runs too fast when you are physically active, especially when you're swinging your arms continuously, making the oscillating weight rotate constantly. The effect is like continuously turning the crown of a manual movement with high pressure when the mainspring is already fully wound. After a 30-minute walk, I extrapolated the rate and it reached about 1200 s/d.

So, I thought that would indicate that rather than "Vigorous movement will add force to the balance wheel, causing it to store more energy and run faster" the problem would lie in the mainspring not slipping early enough. So, as an experiment, I would let the watch rest overnight, likely being fully wound when taking it off my wrist, then remove the oscillating weight in the morning (about 9 hours later) and take it for another 30-minute brisk walk, feeling pretty confident it wouldn't gain much at all. Was I right? Not at all! Extrapolated the rate went from about 3 s/d to 500 s/d.

I think this really strengthens your argument @saswatch88!

However, I also think that if the mainspring doesn't slip soon enough, it will aggravate the problem. Also, I'm pretty sure low-beat movements, like this Vostok 2431 (19800 BPH) are affected more than hi-beat movements (28800 BPH) by the force added to the balance wheel. Anyway, that's my experience. So I believe hi-beat movements are more durable in this regard.

Conclusively I think low-beat movements do well to be handled with a little extra dignity. Perhaps, take it off the wrist when taking brisk walks.

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18 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Not at all! Extrapolated the rate went from about 3 s/d to 500 s/d.

have you ever noticed in timing specifications when you're timing in multiple positions there is a time in between measuring for the watch to do what? so for instance you have one of those fancy microphones on a fancy timing machine that rotates all by itself you're supposed to set a stabilization time. Like for instance snipped out something from Omega notice stabilization time.

I've also attached a PDF not super helpful but there is a reference to  inertia. it would've been nice if we could've thrown in moving from 18,000 to 21,000 I suspect that has an influence also.

Then yes I've noticed on American pocket watches with big heavy balance wheels when the microphone at work rotates around you can see it needs a little bit of time to stabilize.  Really for timekeeping watches are a lot happier if they don't move around at all.

perhaps you could do a timing machine experiment. Place the watch in the microphone note the timekeeping on the machine and pick the microphone up and given a little inertia and inset it back down and see how fast the timing machine stabilizes.

vintage Omega timing specifications.JPG

Omega-have-adopted-the-screwless-balance.pdf

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Thanks for your input John, but I'm not sure how your post relates to what I wrote (or tried to write).

So, just to make sure. The normal average rate of this movement during a 24h period (being worn for approx. 16h and resting approx. 8h) is about +3 to +5 s/d. However, if I swing my arms continually for about 30 minutes (when walking and wearing it on my left wrist) it gains about 30 seconds during those 30 minutes of walking and swinging my arm. So, the average rate during those 30 minutes can be extrapolated to a rate of about 1440 s/d.

I can be very active with this watch without affecting the rate negatively, like getting dressed, brushing my teeth, vacuum cleaning, typing on my computer, writing on a whiteboard while waving my arms trying to get my students to understand something, eating, unloading the dishwasher, making the bed, play table tennis, etc, etc, etc. The only thing that seems to affect the rate significantly is taking it for a walk. Even jogging doesn't seem to be much of a problem. I think that the problem is that too much energy ends up in the balance while continually swinging the arm in wide arches for an extended period of time. Of course, I can't know for sure, but to me, it sounds more than plausible.

My ETA 2836-2 does not suffer from this problem, but I'm pretty sure that's because the mainspring slips exactly when it should and that it runs at 4Hz (28,800 BPH).

Maybe we're talking past each other, or I'm just not smart enough to read between your lines 🤔Nevertheless, I always appreciate your input!

Edited by VWatchie
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to be technical I thought were talking about two separate things here like what happens if breaking grease doesn't break

https://youtu.be/7KNTrHVD088

but I thought you took the weight off so that wasn't the issue?

Than the other issue is watches in motion. even on a timing machine the motion of the timing machine moving the watch upsets timing which is why we need a stabilization time.

Or how about you buy yourself a nice quartz watch than the problem is solved no balance wheel no timing issues no main spring issues that would solve all the problems but not the mysteries

then the Omega thing had to do with balance wheels changing design and mass and size of the balance wheel changes its characteristic and its influence of external things like somebody moving their arm. so if you are watch you have now has an older balance wheel lower frequencies basically may be even design of the balance wheel it has greater influence on timekeeping with motion which unfortunately you can't redesign your balance wheel

24 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Maybe we're talking past each other, or I'm just not smart enough to read between your lines 🤔Nevertheless, I always appreciate your input!

perhaps perhaps not. Too much energy mainspring not slipping definitely bad too much energy if your balance wheel is rotating at the? If you're walking swinging her arms? So you're walking her arms is swinging back and forth in a nice rhythmic pattern versus everything else which is basically random so basically random should cancel how perhaps except of course the watch company still want to see a settling time before taking measurements they must have a concern about random motion?

Now I think were in the same place either have too much power in the mainspring or extra what influence the balance wheel is screwing up timekeeping by a quartz watch solve the problem who cares about the mystery?

 

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No, I'm not trying to solve a personal problem. I'm trying to gain more knowledge about timekeeping in mechanical watches as I find them extremely interesting and intriguing. It's my no 1 interest in life! (I have plenty of quartz watches and even atomic time via the Internet).

I honestly don't mean to sound rude, but I must confess that I'm having a really hard time trying to understand your writing. I believe you use some sort of software that translates talk to text, right? You probably have a very good reason for that, but it doesn't seem to work all that well for me. Anyway, I'm doing my best but just saying in case my responses seem to be off.

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

but I thought you took the weight off so that wasn't the issue?

Yes, I wasn't making that up 😉

The problem... No, let's call it the phenomenon (that I'm trying to understand rather than solve), occurs either way. However, this phenomenon seems to be aggravated by a poorly lubricated mainspring, but that's a different matter.

I guess what I'm looking for is some sort of confirmation to my theory or assumption that the timekeeping of low-beat movements (without any issues) is generally more affected by wide continuous pendulous motions over an extended period of time than hi-beat movements (without any issues). Maybe it's already a fact!?

 

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Hello @VWatchie,

If I understand your situation (and I am not sure I do), I believe what you are experiencing is a timepiece that is not providing the expected isochronous timekeeping that you seem (I think) to feel that a fine watch "should" provide:

https://www.google.com/search?q=isochronous+meaning

(please forgive me if you are already well-accomplished in this aspect of horology)

One of the reasons why time pieces are tested in (typically) six positions (DU, DD, PU, PD, PL, PR) is the very real fact that their consistency of their timekeeping (isochronism) is heavily constrained by certain expected physical characteristics and demand requirements, one of which is that the time piece must at least satisfy minimum Display requirements.  In other words, the watch needs to enable the observer to be able to "tell the time" - which, interestingly, is one of the criteria that you mention in your above message as being almost trivial...considering your access to both digital and atomic time keeping.

A design expectation for watches is that the Display must offer a minimum visibility to the wearer when they need it and are looking at it.  In the modern era (and especially with respect to wrist watches) the movement is not in the position we typically need it to assume when we want to "tell the time".  For most people, the device is mounted on the wrist in such a way that you need to raise your arm to look at its Dial, at which point the device (hopefully) tells you the accurate time.

Your beef is that this is not happening.  You are not getting "the accurate time".  This is a claim (I think) that the isochronism of your mechanical wristwatch becomes unreliable when you are vigorously moving about.

 

Most wrist watches are not designed to handle situations you are putting your wristwatch in, where it is being subjected to the kind of physical forces that you might generate in while working out.  Interestingly, I have read recently about how sub-par isochronism might be somewhat self-cancelling through the random motions we generate as we move through the day.  Obviously that is not happening for you.  Part of this is the rhythmic and regular motions that a workout might produce.  This will certainly wind an automatic watch.  It may also be affecting the supplementary arc of your movement in ways you do not desire, amplifying the beat in one direction suppressing it in another.

According to my understanding, Breguet came up with the Overcoil in an attempt to enhance isochronism, and I would also classify his Torbillon as another attempt to make the isochrononism of split balance time pieces more reliable, and of time pieces in general through another degree of mechanical isolation.

In my studies, I have not (yet) seen a mechanical escapement designed in such a way as to be isochronous in an environment characterized by high-G.  Temperature - yes.  Humidity - Yes.  High-G?  Not yet. 

My suspicion is, if that research was ever performed, it would have been performed with escapements that are not purely mechanical in nature due to the inherent limits placed upon us by the Swiss Lever (and others) escapements.  My instincts tell me that electro-mechanical escapements have a natural advantage in both high-G and No-G environments.

This may help to explain the presence of the Accutron "Tuning Fork" movement in various facets of the Space Program (SR-71 control panel, Apollo control panel, Satellites & Astronaut watches).

If you wanted a High-G/No-G resistant isochronous movement, my suspicion would be that it would need to be mounted somehow on a gyroscope - and I do not know personally how well a gyroscope handles instantaneous changes in direction.  My guess is the gyroscope would fail.  I also believe that there are serious limitations to the use of the Archimidean Spiral in High-G/No-G environments.

I welcome any observations and insights from other members regarding the above.

But you have a happy alternative:  Buy yourself a Timex Ironman Triathlon, which seems to have been purpose-built for your design question.  I myself used them for over a decade while engaging in armored combat, which is a very high-force and very fun pastime.  My examples kept time just fine.  I just had to change them yearly because the case eventually broke due to being rained with blows...even through the armor.  But they still kept the time.

As you can probably guess, I find this aspect of Horology fascinating, and I could go on further - but I've not got the time (right now) as I am working on a project that uses extremely high-precision clocks to instantaneously determine the origin of specific sound signatures in an urban environment in a Public Safety context.

g.

---

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16 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I came to think of this thread as I have just recently serviced a Vostok 2431 (my service walkthrough here). After the service, it runs really beautifully, that is, until I take it for a brisk walk, swinging my arms. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I used a little too much braking grease in the barrel, which of course causes the mainspring to slip a bit too late. This means there is the risk of re-banking and that the movement runs too fast when you are physically active, especially when you're swinging your arms continuously, making the oscillating weight rotate constantly. The effect is like continuously turning the crown of a manual movement with high pressure when the mainspring is already fully wound. After a 30-minute walk, I extrapolated the rate and it reached about 1200 s/d.

So, I thought that would indicate that rather than "Vigorous movement will add force to the balance wheel, causing it to store more energy and run faster" the problem would lie in the mainspring not slipping early enough. So, as an experiment, I would let the watch rest overnight, likely being fully wound when taking it off my wrist, then remove the oscillating weight in the morning (about 9 hours later) and take it for another 30-minute brisk walk, feeling pretty confident it wouldn't gain much at all. Was I right? Not at all! Extrapolated the rate went from about 3 s/d to 500 s/d.

I think this really strengthens your argument @saswatch88!

However, I also think that if the mainspring doesn't slip soon enough, it will aggravate the problem. Also, I'm pretty sure low-beat movements, like this Vostok 2431 (19800 BPH) are affected more than hi-beat movements (28800 BPH) by the force added to the balance wheel. Anyway, that's my experience. So I believe hi-beat movements are more durable in this regard.

Conclusively I think low-beat movements do well to be handled with a little extra dignity. Perhaps, take it off the wrist when taking brisk walks.

I am a little confused here Watchie, are you thinking that this is something that can happen to a lot of auto mechanical  watches and maybe even hand wound ?. I do a lot of walking. I also spend a lot of time in the gym, arms and body pumping in all directions. I always wear a mechanical watch. Soldiers march for hours on end.

1 hour ago, Gramham said:

 

Most wrist watches are not designed to handle situations you are putting your wristwatch in, where it is being subjected to the kind of physical forces that you might generate in while working out.  

Some of the most demanding situations also demanded very accurate timekeeping. Military solders . No ?

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I guess what I'm looking for is some sort of confirmation to my theory or assumption that the timekeeping of low-beat movements (without any issues) is generally more affected by wide continuous pendulous motions over an extended period of time than hi-beat movements (without any issues). Maybe it's already a fact!?

 

My understanding is that the mechanical oscillator in a watch will be disturbed by motion. Inertia, gravity, and changing the bearing surface of the balance staff due to the changes in position will all affect the rate, with varying results. That's why John was talking about stabilization time on a timegrapher, if you wave a watch around while monitoring the rate you can see the effects of the motion. 

Typically, higher rate watches are more stable, but there are a lot of other factors, too.  Size of balance, etc. etc. 

It is not surprising to me that a sustained uniform motion would cause a sustained change in rate.  

Since the discussion had wandered into the topic of mainsprings, I can say that even if a mainspring with an automatic bridel is wound tight because its jammed and not slipping, "knocking" suggest that the spring is not the correct size. The slipping is to provide relief to other components, especially the auto wind components, so that they are not working against a fixed load. This will cause extra wear on and possible breakage of the components.  If the bridle is slipping too early, the result will be less run time than there should be. The watch will never be "fully wound", and for instance, may not run through the night.  

Cheers!

4 hours ago, Gramham said:


If you wanted a High-G/No-G resistant isochronous movement, my suspicion would be that it would need to be mounted somehow on a gyroscope - and I do not know personally how well a gyroscope handles instantaneous changes in direction.  My guess is the gyroscope would fail.  I also believe that there are serious limitations to the use of the Archimidean Spiral in High-G/No-G environments.

I welcome any observations and insights from other members regarding the above.

g.

---

Marine chronometers were typically mounted in boxes with gimbals. This was to shield them from the effects of the ships motion at sea. This doesn't compensate for the up/down motions, but the effects are minimized because the balance staff stays riding on the small pivot end,  and since the chronometer stays "dial up" , it is less affected by poise errors.  

Studying the solutions that were employed to create an accurate timepiece for navigation purposes will often illustrate the problems that the designers were trying to overcome. 

Cheers!

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8 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I am a little confused here Watchie, are you thinking that this is something that can happen to a lot of auto mechanical  watches and maybe even hand wound ?

Indeed! I even removed the rotor on my low-beat Vostok 2431 to test it out. The same problem occurs, the rate increases significantly, and I've seen this on many of my watches, also the manual ones, most clearly on the low-beat watches.

Anyway, jogging, running, playing tennis, table tennis, unloading the dishwasher, making the bed, etc. etc. is never any problem (unless the MS is slipping too late, but that's a completely different topic). However, take it for a walk (wide continuous pendulous motions over an extended period), and things go wild.

I have a female colleague wearing a $4000 Cartier and she complained to me that it was most often, but not always, running 20 seconds fast per day. So, I put it on my TM and everything looked fine. When asking her if she was into brisk walks the answer was "mostly every day, but not always". I rest my case! 😉

8 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Soldiers march for hours on end.

That's true, but they aren't moving their watch arm in wide continuous pendulous motions over an extended period (unless they're parading). They carry stuff, move their equipment around to different positions, and perhaps carry their rifle using their watch hand (usually the left side). This is what it looks like when some Swedish soldiers are marching.

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Some of the most demanding situations also demanded very accurate timekeeping. Military solders . No ?

Absolutely, and a well-regulated hi-beat movement without any issues I'm sure will do the job as long as the situation at hand doesn't require that they swing their watch arm in wide continuous pendulous motions over an extended period.

To make things really confusing is that I have watches (even automatic watches) that don't behave like this... 🤔 It is, as John put it, a mystery.

5 hours ago, dadistic said:

It is not surprising to me that a sustained uniform motion would cause a sustained change in rate.  

That's good to hear as that is exactly what I think as well.

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2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Anyway, jogging, running, playing tennis, table tennis, unloading the dishwasher, making the bed, etc. etc. is never any problem

All of these types a motion or basically random there is no pattern.

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I have a female colleague wearing a $4000 Cartier and she complained to me that it was most often, but not always, running 20 seconds fast per day. So, I put it on my TM and everything looked fine. When asking her if she was into brisk walks the answer was "mostly every day, but not always".

if you wind up a watch that you're looking at and it's not running how you start the watch? Do you give the watch a little bit of a shaken the balance wheel starts to move what if there's no power on the watch you give that little shake does the balance wheel move in other words if you can supply extra low energy in the proper direction you can influence the balance wheel. If you have a repetitive motion like walking where your arms swinging back and forth and your watches facing the right direction isn't that kinda similar to the action of starting the watch wouldn't that be an external influence causing the balance wheel to rotate?

Try moving the watch on your wrist to an odd position. By odd position right now on your wrist swinging back and forth it's getting a really nice pendulum motion to turn the watch 90° so it's on the side of your wrist ill no longer get that motion see what happens.

this comes back to my reference to the stabilization time in the timing machine I've seen it I've seen what I put watches on the machine I can see them changing rate because of the extra role influence of motion causing the balance wheel to behave inappropriately.

Then today we see the lighter weight balance wheels running at a higher frequency they should be less likely to be influenced by this kind of thing. See if you have two watches the heavy old-fashioned 18,000 beats with screws. Then try something modern 21,000 or 28,000 try that the next day you probably find very little influence

so the lesson here is buy yourself a nice quartz watch when you go for a walk or get a different watch. Have a pocket watch there's less body motion were a pocket watch normally would be

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13 hours ago, dadistic said:

Marine chronometers were typically mounted in boxes with gimbals. This was to shield them from the effects of the ships motion at sea. This doesn't compensate for the up/down motions, but the effects are minimized because the balance staff stays riding on the small pivot end,  and since the chronometer stays "dial up" , it is less affected by poise errors.  

Hello @dadistic,

Yes, I was also specifically thinking of vessel timekeeping in my little essay.

The interesting thing I find about this thread is the expectation of isochronism from timepieces that were never designed to deliver that in such harsh conditions (I forgot to add Negative-G to High-G and Zero-G).  That's quite an amazing thing when you consider that ancient timepieces couldn't handle a 1-G shock for centuries. 

We can only guess how many "old" watches would have simply broken, rather than gain or lose time.

it's a real testament to Watchmaking that people think that a wrist-mounted mico machine would function undisturbed while being pulled through the gamut of forces that a physical workout might involve.

@VWatchie,

I do not believe that the removal of the rotor will mean anything in terms of isochronism, all that does is remove a special purpose motion-scavenging Power In System that is as far away from the Regulation System as you can possibly get.  What it may do, if anything, is reduce the amount of weight and consequent force generated at the end of the momentum arm represented by your physical arm, where (presumably) your time piece is mounted in the form of a wristwatch.

N.B.  I am currently performing a Systems Analysis of time pieces, and some of the terminology in that effort appears above.  So far, my analysis has devolved all of them into eight (8) highly inter-related systems, every one of them fascinating and deserving of its own examination and explanation from a micro, meso and macro perspective.  

g.
----

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sometimes my brain is running a little behind where it should be I forgot something in my last whatever up above how about if you could do an experiment?

Wind the watch all the way up so you know it's fully wound up wait about 15 minutes put on the timing machine time the watch and six positions allowing a 20 to 30 seconds stabilization between positions and write all the numbers down. Then set the watch some place no wearing for the next 24 hours and run the timing cycle again than give us both sets of numbers.

 

 

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    • Hiya Stephen, well no there isn't anything wrong with a loupe and staking set as such. I'm just looking for a more convenient way to assemble a balance. What i dont like about the staking set is the position your head needs to be in to see whats happening and i know nothing can be done about that, the tool can only be used upright and the frame can be a bit distracting when looking from different angles ( for me anyway because I'm an awkward bugger ) So apart from using a stake kit to fit a staff i always press on the roller and hairspring freehand using a block, and usually with a loupe. So i changed that and tried doing it with a jeweling tool on its side, worked ok using a loupe for magnification better still under a scope . My thoughts are to simplify that further with something i can pick up, look at it easily from all sides and from above and that can fuction like a jeweling tool but more hand holdable without a micrometer . 
    • Using carbon steel from a feeler gauge, I must have got lucky the first time I annealed. The hole drilled just like it was mild steel - it just went straight through. Shaping with a file was also so easy. The next time I used the same set of feeler gauges. Annealed as before ... and broke 2 drills. Couldn't touch it. Took three more attempts at annealing before I could drill a hole. But it still wasn't as soft as the first time. I now have a steel cannister (an old box spanner with the end hammered over) and some activated charcoal for my next attempt at annealing.
    • Hey all, been a while since the last post but i have some update info on drilling hardened steel for setting levers, @mikepilk if you're interested . It's a real shit of a job without the right gear 🤷‍♂️ After annealing my setting lever i did manage to drill 2 holes the first was ok and relatively quick i think i was just lucky and had something right,the second was tough and the other 2 i needed i just gave up. Pivot drills work but not great, this is supposedly after annealing. The steel is softer and shaping files seem to cut better, but hand drilling with the cheap carbide drills just does not work they break and chip like billyoh, unless...............you have the right gear. This is someway of getting the right gear. Proxon micro drill, the runout 1 1/2 from the head i cant see with x20 loupe holding a .4mm carbide bit. Proxon drill press stand makes it very useable. It isn't cheap but it is , its kind of entry level micro drilling and milling but on a fair quality tool. 0.4mm cheap crappy carbide drills eat through hard and tempered setting levers and feeler gauges ( nothing annealed ) at 5000 revs, the lowest the micromot 240v can go. No chipping of the carbide, but there is a technique involved, you cant just push your way through in one go and i think that might be to do with hardening of the steel as the drill end sits burnishing away on the surface of the steel or maybe the bit needs to bite in. The bit has to bite and back off a dozen times to get through but its about 30 seconds to 1 minute depending how brave you are, i drilled dry so a drop of oil could very well improve the situation. Its not the exact setup i was after but i figure i have some multi use here . Proxon do a few bigger more versatile milling machines and Dell put me onto a make that I'm considering but more like next year now. The little setup i have here is a little introduction to milling for me, i think i like it for now.
    • Thanks John, I think that is where the problem started for this watch. It was taken for a battery replacement by the diver (owner) and the technician didn't tighten the crown and the then owner didn't check (assuming done by the battery replacer) and of course the salt water flooded in. It came to me as a parts watch. As part of my watch repair journey, I am excited to see if I can at least get the analogue time function to work again. It would need a factory service if it were to ever go beneath the waves again, as would any dive watch purchased from ebay or etsy etc. rob
    • Hi @RichardHarris123 not necessarily, on the some the dial is in two parts. Once the bezel is removed the chapter ring is removed gaining access to the stem release, once done the top watch lifts off allowing both batteries to be changed. They all seem to employ the same method just achieved differently On others the bezel is removed by removing screw on the bezel , others use pry points. Its a case of careful inspection before proceeding.
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