Hairspring probably hitting, but then what?

[spectre6000]

I've got a Certina KF304 that's happily ticking away after a cleaning. Great amplitude at 336°. Beat error is tolerable at 3.4mS (especially considering I don't have the tools to adjust it), and the rate isn't bad. I had it on the time grapher to set about regulating it, and it was happy as a clam EXCEPT in dial down. +XXXS/d. OK, so the hair spring is hitting on something. I'm sure this image is one of a true neophyte, but I'm doing my best to get light in there and look up into the balance to see what might be hitting where, and I just can't see where anything is touching anywhere...

The second wheel overhangs the hair spring, but it's a tall movement, and it seems to clear just fine. I thought maybe the overcoil might be hitting the balance cock, but if so, I really can't get in there to see... I don't think it is though. I noticed there was a dimple on the upper cap jewel... but there's way more movement that would be required of the hair spring than that dimple will allow. I noticed there may be a bit of excess play between the regulating pins (it looks like the spring might be bouncing from pin to pin), but I'm honestly not sure what that's supposed to look like.

Here's the kicker though... Dail up was good. Sorta varied from 0 S/d to maybe -10 IIRC... Then it did almost the same thing. Only instead of constantly being +XXXS/d, it does it sporadically and temporarily. Maybe that's a normal presentation for a hair spring hitting something.

So... For it to touch in both dial up and dial down positions, it seems like there would need to be a LOT of movement in the balance, and I don't think that's happening. I kind of think some coils are occasionally sticking together... I demagnetized it multiple times (and it helped with some initial rate issues), but I guess it's possible it's still weakly magnetized... I tried again just now, and if anything dial up is more frequently going wrong. If I tip the timegrapher stand over to where it's crown down, it's happy again, and I can set it back down and continue regulating it for a bit until it sticks again. It's also possible maybe the hair spring is a bit sticky... There were clearly coils sticking together after thee first wash with some old cleaning solution, so I refreshed the jar and it got a lot better. Maybe it's flexing just enough to stick coils...? While it's running fast dial up, I don't think I see any coils sticking, so that goes back to hitting...

I guess the question is what to look for. I don't see anything obvious other than the extreme and inconsistent rate change... And I suppose, once it's found, what do I do about it? I searched, but all I can find is suggestions that hair springs are touching, and never really anything about what to do about it.

[Nucejoe]

A good clear video of hairspring from side and top view, should show the hairspring randomly malfunction. stick or foul itself.

 

 

[Klassiker]

Hi there,

you have obviously given it a lot of thought so far. It's almost a shame to interrupt you, as I think sooner or later you will find the answer on your own. From what you have said though, I am betting that the balance is knocking, i.e. it's swinging so far that it is hitting the outside of the pallet-fork horns. 336 degrees of amplitude is right on the limit of what's possible before this starts to happen. The trace on the timegrapher is the give-away. Are you seeing a sudden change in the dial-up trace, from normal and slightly sloping to steep lines with dots travelling rapidly from the bottom to the top of the screen? What are the vertical positions like?

[spectre6000]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

A good clear video of hairspring from side and top view, should show the hairspring randomly malfunction. stick or foul itself.

If I have that technology, I don't have the expertise to make that happen. I can see clearly with a loupe while it's malfunctioning in the dial up position, and absolutely nothing stands out.

1 hour ago, Klassiker said:

Hi there,

you have obviously given it a lot of thought so far. It's almost a shame to interrupt you, as I think sooner or later you will find the answer on your own. From what you have said though, I am betting that the balance is knocking, i.e. it's swinging so far that it is hitting the outside of the pallet-fork horns. 336 degrees of amplitude is right on the limit of what's possible before this starts to happen. The trace on the timegrapher is the give-away. Are you seeing a sudden change in the dial-up trace, from normal and slightly sloping to steep lines with dots travelling rapidly from the bottom to the top of the screen? What are the vertical positions like?

I thought the amplitude was exceptionally high, and I know academically (everything about this that I know comes from books or lectures still) that it's much higher than is necessary. I am not aware of the generalized upper limit before knocking, though it'll obviously be somewhere south of 360° and dependent upon the geometry of the safety... ramp? eccentric? not really sure what it's called on the roller table. It's easy to imagine that beat on the back side registering as a tick or a tock... Though the timegraphers track and calculate on sets of three... I wonder how that would manifest... 

The trace is nice and flat and steady, then suddenly shoots skyward and stays that way until (in the dial up position) I turn it sideways to a crown up/down/left/right position, at which point it returns to normal, and I can then turn it back until it starts again after several seconds. I assume by "vertical positions" you mean crown directional positions, and these do not exhibit this behavior. 

I do have the technology to capture the traces, and will attempt to do so as soon as an opportunity presents itself; currently looking like Sunday evening at the earliest unless I can sneak a peak sometime today.

The remedy, should that be confirmed to be the case, would seem to be a different mainspring. Thinner, and probably a skosh longer since the volume will be there for it. Correct?

Edited June 26, 2020 by spectre6000

[Nucejoe]

 

19 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

If I have that technology, I don't have the expertise to make that happen. I can see clearly with a loupe while it's malfunctioning in the dial up position, and absolutely nothing stands out.

Oh I gathered wrong from your post then, thought you must have spotted something that made you suspect sticking. Ya Vid is real helpful.  

[spectre6000]

What made me think sticking is that it was slightly magnetized before I started, and the hair spring was a bit sticky due to old/spoiled cleaning solution. I demagnetized it, but thought there could still be a hint of polar alignment left causing problems. I also cleaned it again with fresh cleaning solution, but thought there could still be some residual (whatever was making it sticky in the first place). 

I think the over banking idea rings pretty well. There's less friction on the pivots in the DU/DD positions, so it makes sense there would be extra rotation in those positions. I don't know how to confirm it yet though...

[JohnR725]

 

 

 

 

[spectre6000]

Timegrapher photos:

1st, ~24 hours into a quoted 40 hour power reserve post-regulation. Dial up. 290° is happy and healthy, as is everything else as far as I can tell. Not the steadiest. Don't know why. Don't know if it matters or what it indicates, but I assume there's some instability in the balance. Couldn't find a lift angle for the movement, so went with default.

2nd: I put a full wind on it. Touched nothing else. Amplitude up. Beat error down. Rate up. Coincidentally, this coincides with what would be the predicted accuracy on an old school coil style mainspring, so not a huge surprise. 335° is high, but must not be high enough. It didn't go into gonzo mode dial up this time.

3rd: Here's a full screen cycle dial down, and just off of down. Amplitude would peak at about ~340° dial down pretty much as quickly as it would read it, and then amplitude would drop once I tilted it on its side a little. 340° means just 10° to either side of the full 360°, and that seems about what you'd expect in terms of hardware interference. I think we have a winning theory.

 

I've seen the video above. Over the course of the last 6 months of babying, I've seen every video on perplxr's channel at least once. I may go dig out my mechanics' stethoscope and see if I can hear it directly...

A thought on rectification: I did NOT oil the pallet pivots, as that seems to be the current best practice. WAS that the best practice in 1944 (I'm guessing at production date), and since oiling the pallet pivots would decrease amplitude, is that potentially a quick and easy ticket to success?

Edited June 26, 2020 by spectre6000

[saswatch88]

9 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

What made me think sticking is that it was slightly magnetized before I started, and the hair spring was a bit sticky due to old/spoiled cleaning solution. I demagnetized it, but thought there could still be a hint of polar alignment left causing problems. I also cleaned it again with fresh cleaning solution, but thought there could still be some residual (whatever was making it sticky in the first place). 

I think the over banking idea rings pretty well. There's less friction on the pivots in the DU/DD positions, so it makes sense there would be extra rotation in those positions. I don't know how to confirm it yet though...

Sticking or magnetized hairspring would yield a much lower amp than 336. And your watch would run very fast. Which it is but with high amplitude aka (knocking) however on the verticals positions it will be lower just because of gravity and increased friction. 

this is an older movement so it could be that at some point someone made adjustments to the banking pins and did not adjust the depth of the pallet jewels. You need to check your drop and lock in the escapement and make adjustments there. A new hairspring could be the answer bust most often is not. There other ways to fix this but they are not recommended but would just be putting a band aid on it so iam not going to make those suggestions.

Older movements can be a pain to diagnose because gold knows ho many people had their hands on it the last 80 years not mention those that had no clue what they were doing......

Also did you put a new mainspring in it?

[Klassiker]

More viscous lubrication on the train pivots or balance would help, as would oiling the pallet pivots.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

A new hairspring could be the answer bust most often is not

I didn't realize we could get separate hairsprings for watches like this?

[saswatch88]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I didn't realize we could get separate hairsprings for watches like this?

Not sure about this particular movement but I have gotten for Elgin 5xx 6xx movements and even Hamilton’s and Waltham’s. I don’t see why you couldn’t find one either way.

[JohnR725]

Just now, saswatch88 said:

Not sure about this particular movement but I have gotten for Elgin 5xx 6xx movements and even Hamilton’s and Waltham’s. I don’t see why you couldn’t find one either way.

If it was an American pocket watch typically you could get a new hairspring and then you can play with timing screws and bring it into time if that was the problem with this watch. Or somebody could learn how to vibrated new hairspring but if that's not the problem I was just trying to figure out why you wanted to change the hairspring.

One of the problems with this question is it's a misleading question. Rather than saying my Watch is doing this what ideas Do you have instead it's a suggestion of I have a problem and I think this is the problem and it becomes misleading hard to answer a question like this if it's a question at all.

rather than replacing the hairspring what about a balance complete? This is an older watch the balance staff pivots are probably getting worn and replacing the staff would be an option if you're having timing issues but if you can't fix the beat then you probably can't change the staff so the balance complete might be an solution if you could find one.

17 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

(especially considering I don't have the tools to adjust it),

Then what tools do you perceive your missing that's preventing you from adjusting the beat and perhaps we can suggest alternatives?

18 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

Certina KF304 that's happily ticking away after a cleaning

Little background history what was the watch doing before you serviced it and did you change the mainspring were clean the mainspring?

 

[Klassiker]

By the way, are you sure you cannot correct the beat? The photo on Ranfft isn't great, but it does look like a moveable stud holder.

[spectre6000]

Before I serviced it (if that's the right word for what I've done to this point), it was a classic "needs service" movement. It kinda ran for a short while and stopped. I didn't write it down, but amplitude was maybe something like 180°, and rate was way off. 

The balance stud is not adjustable on this watch. I expect that adjusting it means rotating the collet on the balance staff slightly. I don't have a set of hand levers that small, nor do I have anything with which to get it back on the balance staff.

Not bandaid:

Whether or not replacing a hairspring is possible is beside the point, because it's also not the problem and just another bandaid. The rebanking issue seems to be a problem primarily at full wind. This watch has an old style, coiled main spring, and that rebank suggests that it's delivering more force per impulse than the balance will suffer. 340° amplitude is way more than is necessary. I don't know the service history of this watch at all, but it's had 80 years to accumulate error. Another mainspring consideration is the rate difference between full wind and half wind as observed. Looking at the first two timegrapher images I posted, the first half wind state image shows an error rate of +2S/d, while the second full wind state shows +34S/d. That's 32S/d deviation in isochronism. That's poor. A modern S-shaped mainspring in a modern alloy exists as it does to flatten the isochronsim curve. If I replace the existing coil-shaped mainspring with an s-shaped mainspring, I solve (or at least mitigate) that problem. The other part of that solution, however, needs to address the strength of the mainspring. The alloys are different, and so is the spring constant of a given thickness of spring. I know the s-shaped springs flatten the curve, but I don't know if they shift it. If anyone can point me at how to translate between the two, I guess I need to order a crystal as well, so I might as well get a new mainspring.

Bandaid:

The bandaid option is to reduce the amount of force that makes it from the spring to the balance. I don't know by how much, because who knows how far it would go past rebank given the chance. The simplest method, that probably also brings it back to its original service recommendation (I never did find a service sheet for this movement), and oil the balance pivots. I think I'd probably do the most easily accessible one first (easiest to undo should I need to), then the more difficult one. Then clean and change pivot oiling from 9010 to 9104 down the line toward the balance. Alternatively, 9104 on the balance pivots themselves would probably do the same, but I feel like the degradation will have an effect far sooner and more noticeably in the location....

[saswatch88]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

If it was an American pocket watch typically you could get a new hairspring and then you can play with timing screws and bring it into time if that was the problem with this watch. Or somebody could learn how to vibrated new hairspring but if that's not the problem I was just trying to figure out why you wanted to change the hairspring.

One of the problems with this question is it's a misleading question. Rather than saying my Watch is doing this what ideas Do you have instead it's a suggestion of I have a problem and I think this is the problem and it becomes misleading hard to answer a question like this if it's a question at all.

rather than replacing the hairspring what about a balance complete? This is an older watch the balance staff pivots are probably getting worn and replacing the staff would be an option if you're having timing issues but if you can't fix the beat then you probably can't change the staff so the balance complete might be an solution if you could find one.

Then what tools do you perceive your missing that's preventing you from adjusting the beat and perhaps we can suggest alternatives?

Little background history what was the watch doing before you serviced it and did you change the mainspring were clean the mainspring?

 

If balance was changed i would get a new HS as well but in most cases isn’t the answer alone.....yes i do believe they come complete. They also come complete for the American watches as too but hard to find. If he doesn’t have the tools to regulate (which iam sure the OP does and just doesn’t know it) then iam sure he would not have a staking set with correct K&D 50/51 staff remover to remove and fit a new balance staff

[saswatch88]

1 hour ago, spectre6000 said:

Before I serviced it (if that's the right word for what I've done to this point), it was a classic "needs service" movement. It kinda ran for a short while and stopped. I didn't write it down, but amplitude was maybe something like 180°, and rate was way off. 

The balance stud is not adjustable on this watch. I expect that adjusting it means rotating the collet on the balance staff slightly. I don't have a set of hand levers that small, nor do I have anything with which to get it back on the balance staff.

Not bandaid:

Whether or not replacing a hairspring is possible is beside the point, because it's also not the problem and just another bandaid. The rebanking issue seems to be a problem primarily at full wind. This watch has an old style, coiled main spring, and that rebank suggests that it's delivering more force per impulse than the balance will suffer. 340° amplitude is way more than is necessary. I don't know the service history of this watch at all, but it's had 80 years to accumulate error. Another mainspring consideration is the rate difference between full wind and half wind as observed. Looking at the first two timegrapher images I posted, the first half wind state image shows an error rate of +2S/d, while the second full wind state shows +34S/d. That's 32S/d deviation in isochronism. That's poor. A modern S-shaped mainspring in a modern alloy exists as it does to flatten the isochronsim curve. If I replace the existing coil-shaped mainspring with an s-shaped mainspring, I solve (or at least mitigate) that problem. The other part of that solution, however, needs to address the strength of the mainspring. The alloys are different, and so is the spring constant of a given thickness of spring. I know the s-shaped springs flatten the curve, but I don't know if they shift it. If anyone can point me at how to translate between the two, I guess I need to order a crystal as well, so I might as well get a new mainspring.

Bandaid:

The bandaid option is to reduce the amount of force that makes it from the spring to the balance. I don't know by how much, because who knows how far it would go past rebank given the chance. The simplest method, that probably also brings it back to its original service recommendation (I never did find a service sheet for this movement), and oil the balance pivots. I think I'd probably do the most easily accessible one first (easiest to undo should I need to), then the more difficult one. Then clean and change pivot oiling from 9010 to 9104 down the line toward the balance. Alternatively, 9104 on the balance pivots themselves would probably do the same, but I feel like the degradation will have an effect far sooner and more noticeably in the location....

These are designed and managed by power delivered from a blue alloy spring which will not deliver force as consistent as an alloy spring because it takes shape of a coil rather quickly and a white alloy does not. This is part of the reason why knocking is common in these older movements.....normally you get the exact size and strength but in your case your best bandaid option is a weaker alloy spring since we wont be changing the hairspring.....at this point regulating the watch is not going to help you much but after looking up this movement it does seem to have an ad adjustment lever on the balance cock. Turning the HS collet will just adjust the position of the impulse jewel, the length of the HS is where the adjustment should be made.

[Nucejoe]

I adjust the hairspring to reduce that beat error.

I think saswatch's idea about HS is prematurely dismissed, we can,t be sure we got the right HS, If weak and especially a breguet overcoil, can easily oscillate with amplitude high enough to cause such problem, if so the right hairspring is certainly not a bandaid.

spectre, I remove hairsprings off of balance wheel with a safety razor blade.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

The balance stud is not adjustable on this watch. I expect that adjusting it means rotating the collet on the balance staff slightly. I don't have a set of hand levers that small, nor do I have anything with which to get it back on the balance staff.

I'm being confused by this entire discussion so let's use the section I above as an example of my confusion? So your watch appears to be out of beat? But you appeared to understand how to put the watch in beat so you don't want any help with this?

The reason I ask is if you would like help I'll tell you to put the watch in beat and you don't need to take the hairspring off that's one method not my method I think stupid method it's a waste of time and you risk damaging the hairspring. But it's what works for somebody there is another method that somebody up above uses that's rotating of the roller table I don't like that method either it knocks the watch out of beat and screws up something else. So I have a third method in watch repair as unbelievable as it is there are multiple methods of doing things so if you open I'll help you put the watch in beat but it does mean you have to be flexible in that there are other ways to do things.

 

[spectre6000]

2 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

If balance was changed i would get a new HS as well but in most cases isn’t the answer alone.....yes i do believe they come complete. They also come complete for the American watches as too but hard to find. If he doesn’t have the tools to regulate (which iam sure the OP does and just doesn’t know it) then iam sure he would not have a staking set with correct K&D 50/51 staff remover to remove and fit a new balance staff

My understanding for how to correct beat error on a movement of this type is that the hairspring collet must be removed from the balance staff, rotated the correct amount and direction, then pressed back on to the balance staff. My understanding for tool requirements to do this are a set of find hand levers (do not have) and a staking set with the appropriate fittings (also don't have). My understanding for acceptable beat error in a movement of this type and vintage is 5mS, and at 3.8mS, I'm within spec. I would need to sell a few watches to accumulate funds to acquire said tools, so at this point the cost/benefit analysis says it's fine. Please correct any mistaken assumptions above.

2 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

These are designed and managed by power delivered from a blue alloy spring which will not deliver force as consistent as an alloy spring because it takes shape of a coil rather quickly and a white alloy does not. This is part of the reason why knocking is common in these older movements.....normally you get the exact size and strength but in your case your best bandaid option is a weaker alloy spring since we wont be changing the hairspring.....at this point regulating the watch is not going to help you much but after looking up this movement it does seem to have an ad adjustment lever on the balance cock. Turning the HS collet will just adjust the position of the impulse jewel, the length of the HS is where the adjustment should be made.

Are you saying the white and blue alloys have (at least nearly) identical power/thickness? If that's the case, I can double dip my repair with an improvement on this watch. Depending on how many steps down I can go in strength with the associated displacement, I could gain some power reserve for the trouble. Given that the watch is oscillating at the spec'd 18000bph, and can be regulated to 0S/d (at least in the short term), tells me that even if it's not exact it's close enough.

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

I adjust the hairspring to reduce that beat error.

I think saswatch's idea about HS is prematurely dismissed, we can,t be sure we got the right HS, If weak and especially a breguet overcoil, can easily oscillate with amplitude high enough to cause such problem, if so the right hairspring is certainly not a bandaid.

spectre, I remove hairsprings off of balance wheel with a safety razor blade.

I dig the razor blade removal. What's the equivalent for getting it back on?

[spectre6000]

25 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm being confused by this entire discussion so let's use the section I above as an example of my confusion? So your watch appears to be out of beat? But you appeared to understand how to put the watch in beat so you don't want any help with this?

The reason I ask is if you would like help I'll tell you to put the watch in beat and you don't need to take the hairspring off that's one method not my method I think stupid method it's a waste of time and you risk damaging the hairspring. But it's what works for somebody there is another method that somebody up above uses that's rotating of the roller table I don't like that method either it knocks the watch out of beat and screws up something else. So I have a third method in watch repair as unbelievable as it is there are multiple methods of doing things so if you open I'll help you put the watch in beat but it does mean you have to be flexible in that there are other ways to do things.

 

If there's a method within my current means to address the beat error, I'd love to hear it. If I can make it 0mS, that'd be great. I think at 3.8mS, it's within spec and reason (I'm guessing that's in the neighborhood of 5mS, but that's not based on much and I'm happy to be corrected) for what this watch is, so it's not my primary concern. Definitely all ears though. I'm here to learn.

The primary concern is the rebanking issue.

[JohnR725]

19 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

If there's a method within my current means to address the beat error, I'd love to hear it. If I can make it 0mS, that'd be great. I think at 3.8mS, it's within spec and reason (I'm guessing that's in the neighborhood of 5mS, but that's not based on much and I'm happy to be corrected) for what this watch is, so it's not my primary concern. Definitely all ears though. I'm here to learn.

Unfortunately I need to run off and do something today I will give you some clues we've discussed it before in the group somewhere. Three methods that I'm aware of marks method of taken the collet off which is a waste of time. Nucejoe's Method of rotating of the entire roller table not recommended screws up the poise and screws up something else but I need to get a picture of that. Or did you know you could rotate the collet and achieve the same thing?

They actually made special tools for rotating the collet I have pictures somewhere basically need a really thin long blade that goes into the slot so you can turn the collet but not a tiny screwdriver blade the wedge-shaped will spread the collet that's very very bad. Some watch Oilers providing there the flat on the end they can sometimes do it something has to go into the slot with out spreading the slot and then you can turn it. You can also take your tiny screwdriver and re-grind the tip to being a flat fee and blade.

You can do it either with power or without it's easier to do with out because we let go of the balance wheel it's an issue. You need a felt pen to mark on the balance wheel.

So you want an invisible alignment between the roller jewel and the escape wheel and the balance wheel. Usually people use the banking pins and make sure the pallet fork is between them but that assumes the banking pins or where there supposed to be unlike American pocket watches were there movable and they aren't always where there supposed to be. Then even if you do use this method pay attention that you can be resting on either side of the fork slot and you won't be absolutely in alignment. So visually it might look great but you're going to be offbeat a little bit

How about let all the power off the watch make sure the balance wheel is free you're not hung up on the escape wheel look in and look at the fork and see where it is in relationship to a banking pin how close does it look? Then rotate the balance wheel until the fork is in the middle knowing that as I said you'll be off a little because of the play in the fork slot but you can work it back and forth until you think you are where it should be site across from where the stud mounts to the balance arm and put a little.that corresponds to where the stud should be.

Hopefully because I'm dictating really fast now I never type these I dictate these and sometimes dictation socks so hopefully this is readable? What you're trying to do is figure out where the stud should be in relationship to the balance arm when the balance wheel is out of the watch.

On some of watches Swiss in particular they will actually have a little tiny.super tiny little drilled four pin prick to tell you where the stud is supposed to be. This is why rotating the roller table is bad because that screws that alignment up that was my fun this week with Omega pocket watch somebody move the roller table so the.no longer is where it's supposed to be.

So providing you can get a thin flat rule you can rotate the collet if you try to do with a screwdriver you'll probably spread the collet and then will need a tool to close that.

When the balance is removed from the watch you can look at where the stud currently is versus the.you put a line those put it all back together and you should be much closer to where you want to be. This is a traditional method of putting the watch in beat no need to take the hairspring off because that just isn't X to step wasting time.

If you need pictures all fine pictures when I come back

 

[Nucejoe]

44 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

My understanding for how to correct beat error on a movement of this type is that the hairspring collet must be removed from the balance staff, rotated the correct amount and direction, then pressed back on to the balance staff. My understanding for tool requirements to do this are a set of find hand levers (do not have) and a staking set with the appropriate fittings (also don't have). My understanding for acceptable beat error in a movement of this type and vintage is 5mS, and at 3.8mS, I'm within spec. I would need to sell a few watches to accumulate funds to acquire said tools, so at this point the cost/benefit analysis says it's fine. Please correct any mistaken assumptions above.

Are you saying the white and blue alloys have (at least nearly) identical power/thickness? If that's the case, I can double dip my repair with an improvement on this watch. Depending on how many steps down I can go in strength with the associated displacement, I could gain some power reserve for the trouble. Given that the watch is oscillating at the spec'd 18000bph, and can be regulated to 0S/d (at least in the short term), tells me that even if it's not exact it's close enough.

I dig the razor blade removal. What's the equivalent for getting it back on?

If you have a defective hour wheel or a good one with ID of its tube  larger than the collet ID  but  smaller than the collet OD,  mount it on a pin vice, you then have the tool to push on the collet with to drive the collet home.  If you haven't got a pin vice yet, just put the hour wheel on top of the collet , hold the collet in your tweezers, push down.

I posted some picture about 18 months ago, which I didn't find just now. Will produce new picture of this , post tomarow and inform you .

 

[spectre6000]

I'll pull the balance and see if I can see any marks. Probably won't be able to photograph them though... Need to figure out something there. I have a super cheap macro lens for our old DSLR (bought new ~10yrs ago, and it was an old model then), but I have a hard time getting decent photos.

Serious question on the beat error front: is 3.8mS really worth getting all that worked up over? Obviously, 0mS is the goal, but seeing as how this is the first watch I've touched with the intent to make an improvement rather than just get some time in with the tools, I'm not sure 3.8mS is worth the risk.

When I get back to the bench, I'll pull the mainspring and measure it out and see how it compares to the spec on ranfft. If I'm to do what I intend to do with this thing, I need to order a crystal, so I guess that means I'll be ordering a mainspring to boot... Looking forward to notching a win!

[saswatch88]

5 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

If there's a method within my current means to address the beat error, I'd love to hear it. If I can make it 0mS, that'd be great. I think at 3.8mS, it's within spec and reason (I'm guessing that's in the neighborhood of 5mS, but that's not based on much and I'm happy to be corrected) for what this watch is, so it's not my primary concern. Definitely all ears though. I'm here to learn.

The primary concern is the rebanking issue.

Yes you would remove HS collect for beat error but the high amplitude and knocking must be addressed first. You would have the remove the HS collet but there is a tool called a “tuning fork” which can be used to rotate the collet without removal. Vintage ones can be found on eBay I have one i can post a pic when i get back to my office.....as far white alloy springs go YES they are matched but they just deliver force more consistently for a longer period of time opposed to blue steel as far as how weak you should go its just a guess.....again 80 year old movement some one could have used wrong MS at some point.....what were the readings prior to you cleaning and reassembling? Some times people will use a mainspring used for a 7 jewel on a 15 or 17 jewel....not sure how this caliber was configured but i have seen it a lot in the Elgin’s  and Waltham’s.

Edited June 28, 2020 by saswatch88