Unfamiliar mechanism in a pocket watch allowing reverse winding

[agregate]

Hello all. I received an Elgin (grade 50) pocket watch yesterday that has a few "issues" but I'm not sure how to diagnose them because the watch has a bunch of different parts that I'm not used to.

From what I can tell, there is an obvious issue with the stem - it keeps slipping when I try to wind the watch, this I can fix. However the weird thing is when I wind the watch backwards, it makes a different clicking sound and upon inspection of the movement, the circular piece up to the left of the pinion raises up and drops back down like it's disengaging or something. I don't know how else to describe it. I've back-wound it for a whole minute while the watch is running and it doesn't stop so it clearly isn't releasing tension from the mainspring.

This piece is attached to what looks to be the barrel?

Is this normal?

Edited June 23, 2020 by agregate
slang

[MrRoundel]

I've always wanted one of those nickel plated convertible Elgins. But alas, I have never had one. I do know that they have a unique design that allows one to put it in a hunter case or open face and having the dial properly oriented either way. It sounds like that "transmission" mechanism is the issue. You might check the web for information on convertible Elgins. Good luck with it.

[agregate]

8 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

I've always wanted one of those nickel plated convertible Elgins. But alas, I have never had one. I do know that they have a unique design that allows one to put it in a hunter case or open face and having the dial properly oriented either way. It sounds like that "transmission" mechanism is the issue. You might check the web for information on convertible Elgins. Good luck with it.

Thanks for the starting point. I'll try to have a look around. I don't want to start taking it apart yet as I still have to wait for tools to arrive.

I was quite lucky to find it, bought it online without knowing what movement it was - opened it up and got quite the surprise.

[MrRoundel]

According to this post on the NAWCC forum, the convertible Elgins have a different canon pinion design. It might be one of your issues. Good luck.

Elgin convertible discussion

[agregate]

8 hours ago, MrRoundel said:

According to this post on the NAWCC forum, the convertible Elgins have a different canon pinion design. It might be one of your issues. Good luck.

Elgin convertible discussion

Thank you for the link. I'm looking around on NAWCC too for some answers. I don't yet own a staking set which is apparently required to adjust the pinion...

Will post an update when my tools arrive!

[JGrainger]

I was actually thinking of digging my own out, so might be able to take a couple of pictures or answer some comparison questions in the next few days..

From memory it's a lever set movement and the usual winding ratchet mechanism takes place with a permanently engaged gear under the arm, this performs the winding or is raised in order to set the time.. I'm awaiting a positive set case for my own project but need the correct balance wheel.

[spectre6000]

From your description, it sounds like the part on the main barrel that's popping up when you wind it backwards is a dog clutch. Typically, that same mechanism is found between the winding pinion and the clutch. If I'm seeing it right, to make it convertible they moved that to functionality atop the ratchet wheel. The stem engages with a crown wheel on either side of the ratchet wheel, and having that single clutch reduced part count/complexity to make it work/economical.

[agregate]

On 6/24/2020 at 6:47 AM, spectre6000 said:

From your description, it sounds like the part on the main barrel that's popping up when you wind it backwards is a dog clutch. Typically, that same mechanism is found between the winding pinion and the clutch. If I'm seeing it right, to make it convertible they moved that to functionality atop the ratchet wheel. The stem engages with a crown wheel on either side of the ratchet wheel, and having that single clutch reduced part count/complexity to make it work/economical.

Sounds interesting, knowing this I can stress less over the backwards slip.

The stem has also since been fixed. Someone severely bent the sleeve out of shape which was dragging against the inside of the case. Bit of bending back and screwing with the sleeve wrench and it works as good as new!