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Reading the timegrapher - is it possible to tell why amplitude is so low from timegrapher readings?


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Hey all!

I am new to watch repair, but have recently decided to take a stab at regulating some of my older watches.

I was able to regulate a couple low end vintage movements (an old HMT and Seiko) to +/-5s with .1-.2ms beat error, so when I ran into so much trouble with the 6R15 I was surprised.

The watch was running about 60s/day slow prior to this and since regulating it it seems like it has improved greatly to around +/- 5-10 s/day.

The issue is, it seems like the rate is fluctuating all the time and I am getting an extremely low amplitude. Below you can see two timegrapher readings taken in the midst of this.

When I wind the watch before putting it on the timegrapher the amplitude reading goes up and there are less errant beats. Might this point to the issue being the mainspring?

Sorry if I am asking the wrong questions or not providing enough info. Looking to learn and happy even for some links to relevant info that I might not have found yet on Google.

Thanks!

IMG_20200619_192912.jpg

IMG_20200619_141701.jpg

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If rate fluctustions correspond to the period of any wheel in the train, you'd know where to inspect visually or conduct further test. 

When you wind,  a stronger impulse gets generated at escape-fork mech, hence larger amplitude, so suspecting weak mainspring is generally acceptable.

Interpretaion of TG readings is usually not as easy as above. 

 

 

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timing machines are interesting devices  which can tell you all sorts of wonderful information. for instance  I'm attaching a PDF tells it all kinds of nifty information.  But  reality is the timing machine  points you in the direction like  this watch needs servicing. Or  another way to think about timing machines  like interpreting a crystal ball  some interpretation is required and if everyone on this group looked at your timing machine like a crystal ball we would all have possibly different interpretations  perhaps. In other words it's not  always an exact science.

then the power fluctuations like that things like the mainspring if there's sticky grease old grease that results in uneven power that will give you fluctuations.

yyou will notice in the PDF  is that it's for a paper tape machine.  Everything should be more or less the same except  if you're looking for gear train problems it's hard to see on a liquid crystal screen it's much better  if your machine is spinning out paper.. Or you get an entirely different machine there's better ways to look for gear train problems unfortunately the machine I'm thinking of is really expensive  so that's no help at all in this discussion.

So they are simplistic is  it points general direction of  your watch looks bad servicing is probably required especially if it hasn't been serviced in a long time.

Then when using your machine it helps to establish a procedure. Like you wind the watch up  wait about 1530 minutes then time  and usually dial up or dial down and for  crown/pendant positions  allowing time when changing positions  for the thing to settle down  then try not to get obsessed with all those positions it just a good way of looking for problems. But don't get obsessed about your watch keeping time to one second all positions..

 

Timing-Machine-Charts.PDF

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8 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

If rate fluctustions correspond to the period of any wheel in the train, you'd know where to inspect visually or conduct further test. 

When you wind,  a stronger impulse gets generated at escape-fork mech, hence larger amplitude, so suspecting weak mainspring is generally acceptable.

Interpretaion of TG readings is usually not as easy as above. 

 

 

Thanks for this, this definitely helped me to interpret what I was seeing in the readings.

6 hours ago, Michael said:

Hi, your 6R15 needs a service.

I know :D I am trying to see if I can service it myself

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3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

timing machines are interesting devices  which can tell you all sorts of wonderful information. for instance  I'm attaching a PDF tells it all kinds of nifty information.  But  reality is the timing machine  points you in the direction like  this watch needs servicing. Or  another way to think about timing machines  like interpreting a crystal ball  some interpretation is required and if everyone on this group looked at your timing machine like a crystal ball we would all have possibly different interpretations  perhaps. In other words it's not  always an exact science.

then the power fluctuations like that things like the mainspring if there's sticky grease old grease that results in uneven power that will give you fluctuations.

yyou will notice in the PDF  is that it's for a paper tape machine.  Everything should be more or less the same except  if you're looking for gear train problems it's hard to see on a liquid crystal screen it's much better  if your machine is spinning out paper.. Or you get an entirely different machine there's better ways to look for gear train problems unfortunately the machine I'm thinking of is really expensive  so that's no help at all in this discussion.

So they are simplistic is  it points general direction of  your watch looks bad servicing is probably required especially if it hasn't been serviced in a long time.

Then when using your machine it helps to establish a procedure. Like you wind the watch up  wait about 1530 minutes then time  and usually dial up or dial down and for  crown/pendant positions  allowing time when changing positions  for the thing to settle down  then try not to get obsessed with all those positions it just a good way of looking for problems. But don't get obsessed about your watch keeping time to one second all positions..

 

Timing-Machine-Charts.PDF 5.32 MB · 5 downloads

John,

This PDF was extremely helpful and exactly what I was looking for, lots of great situational examples!

When I had a look I realized that the pattern I was seeing on the timegrapher indicated there might be an issue with the escape wheel, with an errant beat every 15 beats.

When I opened up the watch to have a look, I noticed the gold pin inside the adjustment lever was tilted diagonally (sorry, I am not sure what it is called and I can't find it labeled in any diagrams for some reason, please see the image below).

113542038_ScreenShot2020-06-20at09_52_46.thumb.png.5cc3124889e017a035b3e0b9e2501ae5.png

I adjusted it so it would be long-side parallel with the jewel and went back to the timegrapher. After a final adjustment, I got a reading with a sub .1ms beat error and around +10 s/day and a relatively stable reading with much higher amplitude.

So while I'm happy, I have some new questions:

1) What is that gold pin called that sits in the adjustment lever?

2) How could its orientation cause so much wonkiness in the watch movement?

Thanks for all your help!

IMG_20200620_085708.jpg

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1 hour ago, pubudeux said:

John,

This PDF was extremely helpful and exactly what I was looking for, lots of great situational examples!

When I had a look I realized that the pattern I was seeing on the timegrapher indicated there might be an issue with the escape wheel, with an errant beat every 15 beats.

When I opened up the watch to have a look, I noticed the gold pin inside the adjustment lever was tilted diagonally (sorry, I am not sure what it is called and I can't find it labeled in any diagrams for some reason, please see the image below).

113542038_ScreenShot2020-06-20at09_52_46.thumb.png.5cc3124889e017a035b3e0b9e2501ae5.png

I adjusted it so it would be long-side parallel with the jewel and went back to the timegrapher. After a final adjustment, I got a reading with a sub .1ms beat error and around +10 s/day and a relatively stable reading with much higher amplitude.

So while I'm happy, I have some new questions:

1) What is that gold pin called that sits in the adjustment lever?

2) How could its orientation cause so much wonkiness in the watch movement?

Thanks for all your help!

IMG_20200620_085708.jpg

Just found this link which was helpful: http://blog.watchdoctor.biz/2017/02/13/how-to-put-a-watch-in-beat/

I think the part I adjusted orientation of was the "regulator pin"

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you didn't say which version of the 6R15 you have there some letter variations after the number.. nnot knowing which one you have I've attached to various technical sheets servicing guide and each one has a small section on regulation.. I'm also attaching an image so we get terminology right for the etachron system.

etachron.JPG

6R15CD.pdf 6R15B_C.pdf 6R15AB.pdf

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4 hours ago, pubudeux said:

I know :D I am trying to see if I can service it myself

Maybe the below will help.

 

2 hours ago, pubudeux said:

I got a reading with a sub .1ms beat error and around +10 s/day and a relatively stable reading with much higher amplitude.

Sorry, but 177° is not nearly enough. An acceptable minimum could be 220° in all positions for type of Seiko mov't. Please be aware that unless you manage to work to high/professional standards is unlikely to expect perfect or even good performances by a beginner.

2 hours ago, pubudeux said:

It was the regulator pin. What is it about the regulator pin's orientation that has such an impact on the movement's performance?

Any type of regulator works at the heart of the blalance/escapment system, by touching, almost touching, or not touching one or both pins. Please have a read of some watchmaking book, or search and browse here around about this often discussed subject.

Edited by jdm
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Thanks for that jdm - I was actually just starting to read your service walkthrough. I think I will start by attempting to service an inexpensive Seiko movement I have first before eventually taking this one on after some practice.

I have started by watching a bunch of Youtube videos to try to understand different types of movements and components, but I think I will dive into an introductory watchmaking book as you suggested.

52 minutes ago, jdm said:

Sorry, but 177° is not nearly enough. An acceptable minimum could be 220° in all positions for type of Seiko mov't. Please be aware that unless you manage to work to high/professional standards is unlikely to expect perfect or even good performances by a beginner.

Regarding the amplitude, I realized that I had not taken the timegrapher off the default lift angle and now having adjusted it to the 53 degrees required for the 6R15, it is hovering around 200. Still not at the minimum you indicated.

If this watch has an insufficient amplitude, could it be damaging to the watch movement to continue running it until it is serviced? Are there any negatives to neglecting to service the watch at this time if it is keeping good time with normal use?

Thank you for your helpful answers.

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9 minutes ago, pubudeux said:

Regarding the amplitude, I realized that I had not taken the timegrapher off the default lift angle and now having adjusted it to the 53 degrees required for the 6R15, it is hovering around 200. Still not at the minimum you indicated.

with the exception of one reference in one specific Seiko document Seiko normally does not give you a clue of what the amplitude should be..  But what most companies are concerned about is what is it going to do 24 hours from now. 

did you notice in the service manual for your watch the initial timing is in more than one position? Realistically I would add at least one more position I like to see dial-up and dial down. Then they have two other positions using the dial is a clue as to which direction that should face in.  Then 24 hours 24 hours later they give a timing specification and at 177° fully wound up  24 hours later it's going to look really bad  if it's even running at all.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, pubudeux said:

If this watch has an insufficient amplitude, could it be damaging to the watch movement to continue running it until it is serviced? Are there any negatives to neglecting to service the watch at this time if it is keeping good time with normal use?

A poor amplitude is not damaging the mov't, but the dried up lubrication that is likely to be there will. The damage happens over many years of continuous use, not weeks or months. But most Seiko owners don't care about all that and will just buy a new watch, something that they will want anyway.

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10 minutes ago, jdm said:

A poor amplitude is not damaging the mov't, but the dried up lubrication that is likely to be there will. The damage happens over many years of continuous use, not weeks or months. But most Seiko owners don't care about all that and will just buy a new watch, something that they will want anyway.

I see - I will keep monitoring the watch for the next couple of days, also checking out how the power reserve is doing. Before I attempted to regulate the watch, I had been able to use it for 36+hours but never verified if it works for a full 50.

This watch is over 10 years old and I purchased it from someone who was not aware of its service history, so it does make sense that lubrication is dried up.

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4 minutes ago, pubudeux said:

Before I attempted to regulate the watch, I had been able to use it for 36+hours but never verified if it works for a full 50.

Likely it will run but timekeeping will be very poor, as in way fast.

The idea is that automatics are worn every day, but one can skip a day without the need to correct time.

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1 hour ago, jdm said:

Any type of regulator works at the heart of the blalance/escapment system, by touching, almost touching, or not touching one or both pins. Please have a read of some watchmaking book, or search and browse here around about this often discussed subject.

Based on the service manual for the 6R15C, my takeaway is that when the orientation of the regulator pin was diagonal it was causing additional friction on the hairspring. Could it be that this added friction of the two sides of the regulator pin on the hairspring was decreasing the amplitude?

Here is the excerpt from the manual:

338612125_ScreenShot2020-06-20at15_39_48.thumb.png.1cb4f9c49b50270d2800c25525ae17aa.png

I am also trying to understand the difference between the "Regulator pin" and the "Stud." Is the stud the top part of the regulator pin used to adjust it? In other diagrams of this movement I saw the stud used to refer to the part that is adjusted to adjust beat error (stud support), seen here:

regulator_parts.jpg.6d21c816d8b87326ee3175a5d64fb486.jpg

Can STUD also refer to the top of the regulator pin?

In any case, thank you all for the help and I certainly have a lot of homework to do.

 

 

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Just now, pubudeux said:

Based on the service manual for the 6R15C, my takeaway is that when the orientation of the regulator pin was diagonal it was causing additional friction on the hairspring. Could it be that this added friction of the two sides of the regulator pin on the hairspring was decreasing the amplitude?

No. It takes more than a regulator pin touching to cause poor amplitude. A diagonal position of the regulator head is the normal one as delivered from factory.

Just now, pubudeux said:

 am also trying to understand the difference between the "Regulator pin" and the "Stud." Is the stud the top part of the regulator pin used to adjust it? In other diagrams of this movement I saw the stud used to refer to the part that is adjusted to adjust beat error (stud support), seen here:

Can STUD also refer to the top of the regulator pin?

No. In English stud means "short, solid pin",  and its the name correct name for the part that links the hairspring to the balance cock, via the stud arm. In French, piton. Some discussion:

 

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3 minutes ago, pubudeux said:

Got it. I am just trying to understand why as soon as I rotated the orientation of the regulator pin, the amplitude shot up ~ 50 and the fluctuations in beat rate stopped. 

did you look very very carefully at the hairspring before you started playing with your regulator pin?

 

6 hours ago, pubudeux said:

When I opened up the watch to have a look, I noticed the gold pin inside the adjustment lever was tilted diagonally

regulator pin is supposed to be straight not tilted.  if the regulator was tilted then it's possible it twisted the hairspring in other words they hairspring is no longer flat. Not being flat isn't necessarily an issue but if it was touching the balance arms that would definitely be an issue.

 

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10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

did you look very very carefully at the hairspring before you started playing with your regulator pin?

I did not, just saw that the orientation should be straight in example diagrams so adjusted it to be that way. I guess there would be less mystery here if I had examined it more closely before.

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19 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 

Note that the topic above is about traditional, pin and boot type regulator, not the Etachron used on the Seiko 6R15. Incidentally, the stud is also different.

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1 hour ago, jdm said:

Note that the topic above is about traditional, pin and boot type regulator, not the Etachron used on the Seiko 6R15. Incidentally, the stud is also different.

Got it. Just watched this video on etachron which was pretty helpful in understanding the components and their purpose in regulating

 

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On 6/20/2020 at 3:44 PM, jdm said:

Likely it will run but timekeeping will be very poor, as in way fast.

The idea is that automatics are worn every day, but one can skip a day without the need to correct time.

So for the last 48 hours it's been running face up and has now lost about 5s. Looks like the power reserve (50 hrs) is fine.

Checking it periodically, the timegrapher readings get worse as power winds down and of course amplitude is way lower but for some reason it is keeping pretty good time.

Looks like it surely needs to be serviced but seems to be working alright until then. 

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