Rolex Air King 3130 - not able to set time

[Cmmb8519]

Dear community

I'm servicing a Rolex Air King movement 3130 in my amateur hobby. First time servicing a Rolex and it is my wife's watch, so if i get this wrong I will get in big trouble! :-)

All went quite well with disassembling, cleaning and I got it assemble again.

When testing the motion works (at this stage all was assembled except the automatic works), and trying to set the time by pulling the stem, the motion seems blocked and I'm afraid if I rotate the crown too hard it will damage the pallets. When trying to set the time it forces the train wheel to rotate and it does not feel right. I did not push too hard, but it seems something is blocked.

My amateur guess is that it seems something is wrong with the cannon pinion, but not sure. I gave it a very good clean and lubricated the center wheel with Moebius 9501 before pushing the canon pinion in. The canon pinion clicks in fine and all seems very good.

Does the canon pinion needs to rotate with the center wheel stopped or they always rotate together? right now they seemed to be always rotating together, which puts pressure on the train wheel when setting the time. Attached a photo after i removed the motion works for testing, but not much you can tell from the photo.

Your help is very much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Cmmb8519]

I think I just realized what it is!

I used a presto hand remover tool to remove the canon pinion and it damaged it. See the photo attached. There is a dent on both sides of the canon pinion.

Assuming there is no repair for this. Can you please advise where I can buy one 3130-3150 rolex original canon pinion?

[rodabod]

The canon pinion must be able to slip against the main wheel train to permit time setting. Did you lubricate the centre wheel arbor?

[rodabod]

1 minute ago, Cmmb8519 said:

I think I just realized what it is!

I used a presto hand remover tool to remove the canon pinion and it damaged it. See the photo attached. There is a dent on both sides of the canon pinion.

Assuming there is no repair for this. Can you please advise where I can buy one 3130-3150 rolex original canon pinion?

I've just seen your updated post - you can broach the inside of the canon pinion to fit. (assuming you did lubricate it first).

Also, the pinch marks may be normal. I've not worked on one of these calibers before.

[Cmmb8519]

The canon pinion must be able to slip against the main wheel train to permit time setting. Did you lubricate the centre wheel arbor?

Thanks for your reply. Please see my previous post. I think I damaged it when I removed it

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[MrRoundel]

I don't see a hand-remover putting those dents in the canon pinion. Some watchmakers will use a "V" shaped stump and chisel tipped punch to tighten the canon pinion. It looks just like that when it's done. If you had removed it roughly using nippers, side-cutters, etc., I could see "damage" like that, but not any hand or canon pinion remover that I've seen. I wouldn't worry about it until I put it back together and test out the hand setting situation. Good luck.

Oh, and as was mentioned, the way a watchmaker would undo an overly aggressive tightening, would be to broach out the center of the pinion.

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by MrRoundel

[Nucejoe]

The two dents are signs of previous canon tightening.

This still got another life left, tighten a mm  or more away and 90 degrees around from these dents or broach as neccessary and refit.

[CaptCalvin]

Setting the time almost always puts pressure on the train. The key is how much pressure. What are the parameters of your test? Did you install the pallets and give the watch a decent wind? If you try to test the setting without doing these steps you'd be spinning the train on most watches. I wouldn't worry right now about the dents. They look to be done professionally and not as a result of accident. 

How free is it when you test the setting mechanism without the canon pinion installed?

You don't have to worry too much about damaging the pallets. You can apply a bit more force than you probably think. The torque is at the beginning of the train and it reduces by a considerable amount by the time the torque gets to the pallets. On a movement like this it's even less of a risk as the "center wheel (minute pinion)" isn't even a part of the train. Do be wary not to apply so much force as to shear teeth on the barrel, minute pinion, canon pinion, minute wheel, 2 intermediate setting wheels, or the keyless works.

Edited June 15, 2020 by CaptCalvin

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, Cmmb8519 said:

Thanks for your reply. Please see my previous post. I think I damaged it when I removed it

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No you have not damaged it, just grease and instal, advance hand by 30 hrs or more, you,ll see it is fine. 

[Cmmb8519]

Thanks everyone!

Will try again today and let you know outcome. 

The test I did was with no power in the mainspring, so that might have influenced the result. I will re-assemble it again, give it a good wind in the mainspring and test the behavior again. Will let you know welcome.

 

[rodabod]

Whe you test it, do not force it if it feels very tight as you risk damaging the wheel train and also the keyless works. I sometimes find snapped off teeth where people have been winding aggressively on watches which previously needed cleaning.

Personally, I would not recommend making any changes to the profile of the canon pinion until you are certain of what the issue is.

[Cmmb8519]

All working perfect now. Everything was good all the time. After I test the motion work with power on the mainspring everything behave as expected and all working perfect!

Really happy to accomplish my first amateur Rolex service!!

Bit error is at zero but amplitude is a bit low at 275'. I think amplitude might not be great because I'm not really good at lub the jewels on the pallet fork and made a bit of a mess with the Moebius 9415. 

Thanks again for all the fantastic support.

 

[rodabod]

Give it time to "run in" - the amplitude may rise slightly. Looks like you did a good job in the end. Just for the sake of others in the same boat - what was the cause of the stiff canon pinion? Or was it simply because there was no tensio in the barrel to work against?

[nickelsilver]

Rolex doesn't like amplitude much higher than that, 275 is perfectly fine.

[Cmmb8519]

Give it time to "run in" - the amplitude may rise slightly. Looks like you did a good job in the end. Just for the sake of others in the same boat - what was the cause of the stiff canon pinion? Or was it simply because there was no tensio in the barrel to work against?

Nothing was wrong with the canon pinion. Just when I tried it first time there was no power at all in the mainspring and the motion works was putting some visible pressure on the train wheels and pallets. That's when I got scarred and stopped. Ipl learned earlier on my hobby to stop when things don't head up, ask who knows and look at it again in the morning after a good night sleep [emoji6][emoji846].

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[Cmmb8519]

Much better after running for 10h! [emoji846][emoji846]

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[JohnR725]

I don't suppose you had the service guide for this watch?  Rolex has a rather elaborate timing procedure..  Then you're in trouble  you've exceeded their maximum amplitude  not that that's going to hurt anything..  There is showing a maximum dial-up and dial down of 300°.

[CaptCalvin]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I don't suppose you had the service guide for this watch?  Rolex has a rather elaborate timing procedure..  Then you're in trouble  you've exceeded their maximum amplitude  not that that's going to hurt anything..  There is showing a maximum dial-up and dial down of 300°.

Hardly doubt he's in any real trouble. What do you do when you know you're up for the job hand have everything you need except precise instructions on hand? Throw in the towel and send it in to Rolex? I think if you have common sense and follow conventional wisdom your watch is going to work fine. 3135 and their various "proprietary" lubricants are hardly alien technology. 308 is a fine amplitude for any other movement. Why should it be any different for 3135?

Edited June 20, 2020 by CaptCalvin

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, CaptCalvin said:

Hardly doubt he's in any real trouble.

I think in the reality of the situation he is an extreme trouble the Rolex secret police will be after him soon he's in violation the specifications the entire world will come apart because of this.

I specifically asked my question because I was curious if he understood all the timing specifications? Then what makes you think their lubrication's are alien technology to you have any proof?  For my understanding some of their lubrication's suck which is why even Rolex people don't use them..

Then the 300°  I was quoting from a Rolex technical specification  I'm assuming they're concerned about too much amplitude. Personally had given a couple of days and it's probably several down and be just fine 

 

[CaptCalvin]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

what makes you think their lubrication's are alien technology to you have any proof?  For my understanding some of their lubrication's suck which is why even Rolex people don't use them..

I don't think that. I'm saying that that's what Rolex and their shills might want you to think.

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then the 300°  I was quoting from a Rolex technical specification  I'm assuming they're concerned about too much amplitude. Personally had given a couple of days and it's probably several down and be just fine 

Too much amplitude is a problem, as normal motion can cause the watch to knock and gain time. However nobody except maybe Rolex would say 308 is too much amplitude. It will be completely fine unless you're doing something abnormal like vigorously towel drying your hair for a good couple of minutes with your watch on.