Jacot tool and pivot file burnisher question

[Orologi67]

i want to buy a jacot tool.  Theres one on Ebay that I asked the seller what the smallest numbered hole is.  He said #2.

Is that .02? .20? Or 2.0? MM?

Is there a way to know this just from a picture or question?

[oldhippy]

If you post the link we can have a look. Why do you want one? 

[Tmuir]

Usually the numbers are 1/100 of a mm, but that can't be the case on the tool you are looking at as no pivot is 0.02mm.

As oldhippy says we would need to see the tool.

One important thing about buying a Jocot tool don't even bid on it unless they show you the ends of the pivot holders, especially the circular disks with the holes in them as they are usually cracked or broken.

Also look at the case it sits in. Does it look like there are spaces for more parts? If so unless its a silly cheap price also avoid it.

I would go to say that over half of the Jacot tools sold on ebay are not really fit for work anymore.

[Orologi67]

Ebay item number 174298974234

I want one such that i can burnish pivots of small size

[oldhippy]

I can't find that number. You do know you use a jacot tool with a bow. I have had a look and the only good one I see is this which is complete and in very good condition also has a poising tool which is in with it.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-Steiner-Jacot-Tool-Watchmakers-Lathe-And-Poising-Tool-good-condition/283907192183?hash=item421a2ff577:g:FaUAAOSw3Rxe3n7u

[nickelsilver]

It doesn't look bad. Like Tmuir said, they are generally marked by hundredths of a millimeter, but I'm sure I've seen some that had an arbitrary numbering system. I have some that go down to 0.04mm, so maybe this one does go to 0.02mm; not really practical for anything but they did it just because they could haha. The lanterns are intact, and it seems to be a matched set which is important. The Cadillac of jacot tools is Steiner, now Horia, they made them in the style of that one and then moved to a boxier look in the 50s I think. The trademark is a rooster, you see them on German speaking sites as "Hahn" rather than Steiner.

 

Edit- OH posted that link while I was typing. That's a modern style Steiner, and has the runner for doing larger pivots like center wheels (the one with slotted beds on both ends, no lantern). I will likely go for double that price though.

Edited June 15, 2020 by nickelsilver

[Orologi67]

Try this link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/174298974234

This is the one im looking at.

I see the one @oldhippy is refering to but i hate buying out of the usa.  Im watching the Steiner as well

[Orologi67]

yes ive watched videos on jacot operation.  One of them is linked here on this forum.  I see one uses a bow.  

[jdm]

13 minutes ago, Orologi67 said:

I see the one @oldhippy is refering to but i hate buying out of the usa. 

What's wrong with that? You guys don't even pay tax or duties of any kind, up to a pretty high declared amount.

[oldhippy]

It looks to be OK. 

[Orologi67]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

What's wrong with that? You guys don't even pay tax or duties of any kind, up to a pretty high declared amount.

Because if i need to return it its difficult.  And actually i did pay duty on something i bought from canada recently.  I think the trump trade wars added duties to imported goods

[jdrichard]

Most likely .02mm


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[Orologi67]

my Jacot arrived in the mail yesterday.  It is in very good condition save one thing (or two things)

For those of you that have used a Jacot tool, on the side that turns when the string is moved back and forth.  The tip on all I have seen online has two prongs.  Sometimes the prongs are hinged sometimes not.  I call this the propeller.  Its the part that nestles between the wheel spokes to turn the piece back and forth when burnishing. I swear ive looked at a thousand pics but everyone fails to show this important area in detail except for the video on here and that is a hinged version. Are they all hinged?

Ok mine has one propeller left and it appears disfigured.  I drew up a sketch.  Id like input on the shaping and material (brass??)

Does my sketch look like how I should proceed to fashion two new prongs?

Maybe Im off.  Let me know.  Im, of course going to experiment with junker parts first.

Thanks Stephen

[JGrainger]

The main thing is to try it as-is then decide for yourself. My own both only have one. I've got a pivot drilling tool with two but that could just be designed in so that it's convenient to use a u shaped piece of wire which will hold it's self in without being fastened by a screw.

In practice I suspect that two driving prongs could require extra practice for setting the part up on the tool - for anyone trying to get the part between both driving prongs while also getting it to stay put on the tool ready for a burnisher to be placed on the pivot to be polished.

[Orologi67]

mmmm.  Thanks.

[watchweasol]

Hi  The ones I have seen can have either one or two  more usually one   its a driving dog. used with a bow to turn between centers.

[nickelsilver]

All of the ones I've used have had one, in the sense there is one hole in the pulley for the drive finger. But, on most of the more modern tools the drive finger is actually two fingers that are sort of hinged; you can use both, you can sometimes fit a wheel spoke between them (but they are close together), or you can hinge one up out of the way and use just one. The fact that they are hinged makes it easy to adjust.

 

 

[praezis]

Steven,
the reason, your "propeller" has its bent shape: so it can drive small and bigger wheels.

One pc. is ok. Your file shall touch the pivot only, when it is already turning. File during turning one direction only.

Frank

[Tmuir]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

Steven,
the reason, your "propeller" has its bent shape: so it can drive small and bigger wheels.

One pc. is ok. Your file shall touch the pivot only, when it is already turning. File during turning one direction only.

Frank

I Agree only file when the pivot is already rotating or you will end up with flat spots, but you should file in both directions, that is on the push and pull stroke, when the bow is being moved forward (away from you)you pull the file towards yourself and vice versa, you should also have the bow threaded on the jacot tool so that the motion of the pivot is opposite to the direction you are moving the file.

[Orologi67]

Thanks for all the info.  Im gonna play around with this jacot and see what i can do with it.  Ill try with one "drive finger" first.  I was told by someone not on this forum that my type jacot should use a soft brass finger such that i can bend it to fit into diferrent inside diameters.  The pin in there now is distorted so im gonna make a new one a try it from there

[VWatchie]

I have simple question which I hope has simple answer. Is a pivot file burnisher, like this, used to remove material from the pivot or is it simply used to remove all grime, oxidation, dirt, etc., to make the pivot completely clean, shiny, and friction-less? Or perhaps it can somehow be used for both purposes?

The reason I’m asking is that I got myself a Jacot tool to make pivots completely clean, shiny, and friction-less (as far as possible) when servicing, and I’m looking for the best tool (and method) to use with the Jacot tool.

I watched @jdrichard's Jacot tool videos (very helpful, thanks) but I feel very uncertain about what the burnisher tool does.
 

[rodabod]

The burnisher removes a small amount of material. But that is not it’s purpose. It’s purpose is two-fold. It folds over the surface grains of metal which makes them smooth and achieve a polish. So this helps to reduce friction. Secondly, the process hardens the surface of the metal which in theory may improve longevity. 

[jdrichard]

I have simple question which I hope has simple answer. Is a pivot file burnisher, like this, used to remove material from the pivot or is it simply used to remove all grime, oxidation, dirt, etc., to make the pivot completely clean, shiny, and friction-less? Or perhaps it can somehow be used for both purposes?
The reason I’m asking is that I got myself a Jacot tool to make pivots completely clean, shiny, and friction-less (as far as possible) when servicing, and I’m looking for the best tool (and method) to use with the Jacot tool.
I watched [mention=1704]jdrichard[/mention]'s Jacot tool videos (very helpful, thanks) but I feel very uncertain about what the burnisher tool does.
 

Use to do both. I use the more coarse one to bring the pivot close to size and the more fine one to complete the pivot as was noted by the other comment. Watch this video of mine. I used the double sided burnisher.


Making a Complete Pocket Watch Balance Staff - Video Mirrored, Sorry

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[nickelsilver]

The Bergeon you linked is the standard tool. It has a grained surface which acts as a micro file. Oddly if you hold it in your right hand you want the "G" model (gauche or left). One side is for conical pivots the other for straight shouldered pivots.

Like Rodabod said it does remove metal, slowly, while compressing it. For example I tend to leave balance pivots 0.01 or 0.02mm oversize before going in the jacot, a 0.09mm pivot will reduce to 0.07 in about 30 seconds. A larger pivot, say 0.30mm, would take more time to reduce in size.

[VWatchie]

Thanks for your replies, very helpful! Here's an image of the Jacot tool that I bought from a Polish eBay a seller (£222 including shipping to Sweden). I haven't yet tried it with a train or balance wheel, but everything looks fine and seems to be working well including the handle and string used to rotate the spindle holding the wheel back and forth.

I've flipped the original eBay image horizontally to show you how I expect to be working with the tool. That is, pulling the handle back and forth with my left hand while working on the pivot holding the burnisher tool with my right hand (I'm right handed). So, I have a few questions that I hope you can help me with!

a) Would it be reasonable of me to expect that this Vallorbe Swiss Pivot File & Burnisher fulfills the two functions (coarse and fine) that you mention?

b) As can be seen via the link in a), the burnisher tool comes in two versions, left angle and right angle. As the wheel I'm working on will be mounted on my left side, am I correct to assume that I should pick the right angle version (3212)? That is, so that the rounded safety edge of the burnisher tool is facing the mounted wheel .

c) Initially I only expect to be working on the pivots of the train wheels. In this case it would be very desirable to burnish the shoulder of the wheel arbor too as it (now and then) rests on the jewel. Could this be accomplished with the right angle version as well, perhaps by rotating the burnisher tool 180 degrees and use the non-rounded edge?

If my questions doesn't really make any sense it's likely because I've misunderstood something, but then please try to straighten me!

Oh (although less important), I really can't figure out the differences between "polish", "burnish" and "buff"?

Edited October 5, 2020 by VWatchie
Minor adjustment to make the post easier to read