Seiko 6309a winding issues after rebuild

[Fraczish]

I've stripped down a 6309a movement, my first Automatic, cleaned and have started reassembly.

Had real difficulty getting the Barrel Arbor on to the new MS, which I've not had on other Movements.. couple of hours and lot of swearing later it was on.
The first concern was that there is no handwinding function so I couldn't really test if the MS/Barrel/Arbor were working correctly until the end..

Once fully assembled the watch won't fire up, the balance swings freely but it's clearly not getting any power from the barrel...

Having pulled off the Automatic gear again I found that I could move the barrel slowly with a bit of pressure to the outside gear.. the balance immediately swung into life.

Couple if questions if anyone could help me with it would be much appreciated:

Does this sound like I've cocked up the the barrel/MS/Arbor reassembly?

Could the click works be causing the spring not to wind? (Looks like it's on right but could be wrong)

Could this be a Automatic winding problem?

Is there a way to test the barrel assembly during rebuild to ensure its functioning correctly?

Sorry about the length of this post, I'm thinking of buying a new Barrel, Arbor and MS just to rule it out, but thought it wise to ask some advice first!

Thanks again

 

 

 

[aac58]

If the arbor and the click are correctly installed, you can wind the MS with a screwdriver by turning the ratchet wheel screw clockwise.

Edited June 5, 2020 by aac58

[watchweasol]

Hi  Doing what aac58  advises will certainly power up the watch, but having applied pressure to the barrel and got the balance to operate I would think the problem lies in the spring fitting area,. I would remove the barrel and check the spring is not binding in the barrel and that the arbour is fitted correctly and then proceed from there.     cheers

[JohnR725]

When servicing the watch did you follow the tech sheet?

Standard procedure on Seiko's as aac58 Stated above they can be manually wound with a screwdriver. So you can wind the watch up before you put the automatic weight on and verify that it actually winds up and runs. Then you can manually remove the automatic weight around look at the ratchet wheel and see that it's moving.

Did you put the original mainspring back in her did you get a new mainspring? And what exactly was the problem of getting the harbor in? Then you did remember to put the mainspring back in the correct direction I assume?

Then standard assembly practice before putting the pallet fork in you manually wind the watch verify that the trains spins ideally are looking for backspin. So using the screwdriver method you should build a wind the watch and see if your trains spins this way you avoid these unpleasant surprises of the balance wheel not moving. Plus you should of notice that before you got this far because I assume you lubricated the escapement which requires you to wind up the watch.

Then just in case you didn't have it I'm attaching the tech sheet parts list. Also attaching a link to someone else servicing the watch so you can look and compare pictures with yours. You will note in his service he didn't put in a dial parts back on and he could verify the watch's is running. Minor advantage of not having or needing the stem for winding is you don't have to have the dial side components in place. Just like you don't have to have the automatic in place to verify the watch runs.

https://watchguy.co.uk/service-seiko-6309-740-calibre-6309a/

 

 

Seiko 6309A.pdf

[Fraczish]

Thank you both, I will get into again bin a couple of days time. 

If the hook is not properly engaged with the end of the spring would it become engaged as the barrel rotates around it? Only ask as I couldn't tell for sure it it was clearly in or not..

[Fraczish]

Thank you John,

I did have the tech sheet however the resolution is not the best so it's difficult to make out exactly some of the smaller, more crowded drawings. 

I purchased a new MS, which I believe can only go in one way.. colour side of shim up? 

The problem was trying to hook the end of the spring on to the Arbor, it was almost like the end was too tight making it very difficult to engage the Arbor. I'm sure many pros would of managed it with no problems but it's all very much a learning curve for me still. 

I will try the screw driver method, I would normally do this with a manual winding watch.

Thank you for the link also.

 

[Fraczish]

So with the screwdriver turning the ratchet wheel it rotates and feels normal for about half a turn, then I can feel something that feels like the spring slipping/jumping... I don't have a winder so I think the safest thing for the sake of a tenner is order up a new spring and Arbor.

[aac58]

This is the correct 6309 MS direction, just in case you remember how did you install it.

[Fraczish]

Yes my spring looked just like that once inside the barrel, except the last coil with the aperture was tighter than that, which is what made getting the Arbor in harder.

Having looked at the link above, I notice 4 drops of Oil/Grease on the springs themselves.. would this be required on a new spring? Is it likely to be 8200 or similar for lubricating the MS?

Edited June 5, 2020 by Fraczish

[watchweasol]

Usually the mainsprings come ready lubricated just to fit.

[jdm]

11 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Usually the mainsprings come ready lubricated just to fit.

Correct, but that doesn't satisfies some, which insist in lubricating the "floor and ceiling". That even before mentioning anti-braking grease to the walls of automatic. Just give time to lubrication threads to grow, sit back, and enjoy.

[Fraczish]

1 minute ago, jdm said:

Correct, but that doesn't satisfies some, which insist in lubricating the "floor and ceiling". That even before mentioning anti-braking grease to the walls of automatic. Just give time to lubrication threads to grow, sit back, and enjoy.

Haha! They get opinions going that's for sure, let's not go there... However since you mention it, how much breaking grease should bone apply to the wall? I've heard alot about too much and too little, but not much about the correct amount

[jdm]

Just now, Fraczish said:

Haha! They get opinions going that's for sure, let's not go there... However since you mention it, how much breaking grease should bone apply to the wall? I've heard alot about too much and too little, but not much about the correct amount

Let's not go there 

[aac58]

4 minutes ago, Fraczish said:

... how much breaking grease should bone apply to the wall? ...

Luckily today Mark has uploaded a video about the restoration of a Seiko 6119, a very similar movment to the 6309. You can see him applying braking grease to the barrel walls here:

 

[Fraczish]

Perfect! Thanks very much, I had that video on my watch later list, I'll give it a watch this evening. 

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, Fraczish said:

I purchased a new MS, which I believe can only go in one way.. colour side of shim up? 

Usually the colored ring is up that doesn't mean you can't flip it over and accidentally put it in the other way around. Some watches the mainspring actually goes in backwards and if the mainspring is generic than the colored ring would be the wrong way up.

The breaking grease issue? Marks video didn't say which one he was using and yes there is a difference. Like for instance here's a video showing how to put on breaking grease.

So at about three minutes in the video he's applying an interesting white grease in a very copious quantity all the way around the outer edge. The definition a copious quantity is a huge quantity all the way around the wall? Is this the correct amount yes because this is a Rolex grease. So if you were to use the more common p125 grease in the same quantity the mainspring would never slip at all it would be too sticky. So you have to use the right quantity of whichever greaser using. We've already discussed this before there's a discussion somewhere complete with pictures you can do a search and find it.

ttps://youtu.be/7KNTrHVD088

[saswatch88]

13 hours ago, Fraczish said:

So with the screwdriver turning the ratchet wheel it rotates and feels normal for about half a turn, then I can feel something that feels like the spring slipping/jumping... I don't have a winder so I think the safest thing for the sake of a tenner is order up a new spring and Arbor.

If its slipping within a half turn then I suspect it’s coming off the arbor instead of slipping on the barrel wall. You 100% need to use breaking grease but you also need to check your fitment to the arbor....which iam sure is the issue here. How do you shape the MS end. I use beading pliers to shape them some use heated tweezers but I get much better results with beading pliers, no need to heat and no need to worry about damaging burring or breaking the MS. Also I use a pair of nylon pliers and gently grip the arbor and turn with barrel lid off and I observe how the spring catches to the hook and the coiling of the MS. There you see and check for immediate slippage or disengaging of the MS. Don’t oil the MS. Some lightly oil them but if you don’t know the right amount don’t try it. Like everyone said most white alloy springs come with dry lube ready to install anyway.

[Fraczish]

7 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

If its slipping within a half turn then I suspect it’s coming off the arbor instead of slipping on the barrel wall. You 100% need to use breaking grease but you also need to check your fitment to the arbor....which iam sure is the issue here. How do you shape the MS end. I use beading pliers to shape them some use heated tweezers but I get much better results with beading pliers, no need to heat and no need to worry about damaging burring or breaking the MS. Also I use a pair of nylon pliers and gently grip the arbor and turn with barrel lid off and I observe how the spring catches to the hook and the coiling of the MS. There you see and check for immediate slippage or disengaging of the MS. Don’t oil the MS. Some lightly oil them but if you don’t know the right amount don’t try it. Like everyone said most white alloy springs come with dry lube ready to install anyway.

Thanks for this, I used breaking grease 8217 I think was the number, however looking at these videos I put too much on. I will address that. 

I got the barrel apart last night but again ended up fighting with the Arbor before and hour before it went flying.. new one on order...

As for manipulation of the end, I've not done this before, the couple of manual springs I have changed for new the Arbor has just fitted straight in. This sounds like it might be part of my problem as the end of the spring just seems too tight to accept the Arbor. 

[saswatch88]

54 minutes ago, Fraczish said:

Thanks for this, I used breaking grease 8217 I think was the number, however looking at these videos I put too much on. I will address that. 

I got the barrel apart last night but again ended up fighting with the Arbor before and hour before it went flying.. new one on order...

As for manipulation of the end, I've not done this before, the couple of manual springs I have changed for new the Arbor has just fitted straight in. This sounds like it might be part of my problem as the end of the spring just seems too tight to accept the Arbor. 

Glissalube 20 is 8217 and used in automatic barrels. Others forms of this grease is used for aluminum and brass barrels. The fit should be tight. If the end is not in the correct position over the hole in the barrel it could still slip no matter if it’s tight or loose. It should be positioned to where the hole end of the should be in center of the barrel slightly offset. I would love to show a pic but I don’t have any movements apart on my bench currently so I drew a makeshift diagram. As you see sometimes a new MS wont line the end up with the barrel hole so adjustments should be made prior to the end to get it centered. You are trying to hook the arbor on then trying to move it over to set it into the barrel hole which iam going guess that’s why it flew across the room.

and I just realized I drew the MS backwards but you get the idea.

[Fraczish]

That's very helpful! Appreciate the effort to draw it out! 

My spring needs some adjustment then as it doesn't sit over the hole as you rightly said trying to get the Arbor hook engaged and get into its hole at the same time is what's causing my problem. I did think about manipulating the spring but didn't know if I would damage the MS.

I will have a go at centering it whilst I wait for a new Arbor and spring to arrive. 

Thanks again for all the help, it's been invaluable!

[JohnR725]

It would be really helpful if we didn't have to use our imagination and you can show us a picture of the problem.

9 hours ago, Fraczish said:

My spring needs some adjustment then as it doesn't sit over the hole as you rightly said trying to get the Arbor hook engaged and get into its hole at the same time is what's causing my problem. I did think about manipulating the spring but didn't know if I would damage the MS.

If this was a hairspring not being centered can be an issue. If it's a mainspring it's not entirely an issue in that as long as the arbor fits nice and tight in the center part it should still work fine.

[saswatch88]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

It would be really helpful if we didn't have to use our imagination and you can show us a picture of the problem.

If this was a hairspring not being centered can be an issue. If it's a mainspring it's not entirely an issue in that as long as the arbor fits nice and tight in the center part it should still work fine.

Not necessarily, it could cause an issue with slipping because it puts undue stress on the spring and arbor even when it’s fully unwound and it could cause the MS to pull on the arbor and in this instance it could slip off the hook because it causes the end to open up slightly, this happens esp if mainspring is let down suddenly. Overtime this could also weaken the spring. Which i believe is why when a spring breaks it’s usually somewhere close to the arbor rather than farther down the line. Not to mention just making it much easier to assemble the barrel and attach the mainspring to the arbor. These are things that I observed over the years so just stating something I have taken note of. In the beginning I did exactly what the OP is doing then I wondered why I always had issues related to the MS. Now since I have done this no issues except when arbor pivots or worn.

[Fraczish]

Just thought I would report back now that it's back together. 

So after a 2nd new mainspring and a new arbour I realised the spring I was struggling with was infact wound the wrong way (my fault completely, lesson learned) new spring and arbour went in with no bother. 

Reassembled the barrel/train bridge (take me ages to get this on) forget the click, take apart and reassemble. (Only took an hour that time! Haha)..

Turned the ratchet wheel felt much better, no slipping/skipping. Continued the build, balance started swinging freely which is always a satisfying feeling. 

Got her back in to the cleaned case with a NOS Seiko Glass, cost a third of the price of the watch but it's worth it to me.  Here's a photo as a thanks to everyone that helped along the way. Couldn't of done it without you're help.

 

[jdm]

8 minutes ago, Fraczish said:

Turned the ratchet wheel felt much better, no slipping/skipping. Continued the build, balance started swinging freely which is always a satisfying feeling. 

Very good, the final check is on a timegrapher for consistency of pattern, amplitude and timing in at least 3 positions.

[Fraczish]

22 minutes ago, jdm said:

Very good, the final check is on a timegrapher for consistency of pattern, amplitude and timing in at least 3 positions.

Thanks, I did put it on the there initially after winding the rachet. All seemed reasonable. 

Will see how long it runs for a couple of days before I get in to timing it.