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Novice attempting a repair on an Oris Cal 292 movement


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2 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I might misunderstand you, but isn't the normal procedure to first service the watch and then do the fault finding in case the problems remain? It's an honest question, not an opinion.

It all depends upon whose procedures you going to follow?

Let's see if I can figure out how to word so not confusing? So there is probably more than two methods but originally when I was in school I was taught to evaluate the watch make your repairs once the watch is functional then it's Disassembled and cleaned and we go off with assembly lubrication rating etc.  The reason for this is once the watch is nice and clean and properly lubricated other than minor regulation if you have to be disassembling the watch or taking the balance wheel out multiple times you will screw up the lubrication. That means if you screw it up you basically have to clean it again and start over.

In modern shops and the modern schools there now teaching pre-cleaning. They do not like to work on dirty watches they like clean watches because they feel they can see things better. So movement assembled is run through a special machine They usually has a shorter cleaning cycle. The other reason it's a separate machine is to keep the cleaning fluid in the final cleaning machine much cleaner. Now you can evaluate the watch do the repairs on a clean watch then it's taken all apart Clean and lubricated minor regulation same as above then.

 

 

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Minor update, although probably the first of any real value;

Once the pallet was removed I noticed that when wound, the gear train would operate (see video), although it felt and sounded quite laboured.

My first thought was that the pallet was not seated correctly, therefore obstructing the escape wheel from turning, however, I removed the pallet and re-seated it, and the behaviour is the same - a complete halt of the gear train.

Even more confusing, when rocking the pallet back and fourth with tweezers it does indeed rotate the escape wheel so I'm a bit confused?

 

Edited by Maxppp
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5 hours ago, Maxppp said:

Once the pallet was removed I noticed that when wound, the gear train would operate (see video), although it felt and sounded quite laboured.

As a wild guess your watch hasn't been serviced in a while if ever. The lubrication has more than likely hardened up Or gummed up or just gone bad. In order for the watch to work as much energy out of the mainspring as possible has to be transmitted through the gear train. Then we also assume that the mainspring Is not set or it doesn't have sticky grease. So basically what you're seeing is yes the watch turns and spins that's good but it's more likely a dirty watch it has to be taken apart and cleaned And lubrication

5 hours ago, Maxppp said:

Even more confusing, when rocking the pallet back and fourth with tweezers it does indeed rotate the escape wheel so I'm a bit confused?

When the pallet is out if you look carefully at the pins sticking up do they look nice and smooth or is there anything a worn? Also when you pushed on the fork if you just gently push on it it should snap to the other side if you have to push it all the way across with no snapping is not going to run the watch. The Pallet fork has to move with zero force. Then if there's any old sticky oil on the escape wheel that's going to be an issue.

So simplistically it looks like a watch that needs to be taken apart clean and lubricated and possibly the mainspring changed but we won't know that until you get it out.

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6 hours ago, MichaelG said:

I hate to backtrack this far but after rereading previous posts I wasn’t able to tell. Did the movement come out the back? After removal of a retaining ring?

Hi Mike, the movement came out the front -  there was a thin retaining ring that needed prying from the front of the main body, which I initially thought was just part of the case design.

Edited by Maxppp
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Hi all, another brief update (free-time is rare). 

I've removed the bridge in the photo below, but for the life of me I cannot seem to remove the wheel shown. Has anyone got any ideas?

It has a shaft running through it, and a wheel on the other side of the bridge. I've tried to pull fairly hard, but nothing gives.

I've found a picture on the internet of spare parts, that looks like it can be removed, but I've no idea how?

2.jpg

1.jpg

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In order to properly service the movement you absolutely should remove the wheel so that you can clean any contaminated or degraded oil away (which if left could very easily result in premature wear and failure even if the side shake is acceptable now) and relubricate with fresh oil. 

A dedicated 5 spoke wheel puller is the best way to go as it pulls at the hub, eliminating the risk of deforming the wheel, but not the only way. The important thing is to pull the wheel straight up with no twisting or canting of the wheel since the arbor is brittle and will snap sooner than bend.

This can be achieved using two thin blades worked under the wheel from opposite sides to gradually wedge the wheel up.

You may need to protect the bridge with some paper or tape to prevent scratches, and you need to use blades that are only very slightly thicker than the gap between the wheel and the bridge because you need to progress slowly, and don't be tempted to twist the blades. As long as the force is straight up in line with the arbor, and gradual enough to not deform the wheel, you should be alright. 

Edited by Marc
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2 hours ago, Marc said:

In order to properly service the movement you absolutely should remove the wheel so that you can clean any contaminated or degraded oil away (which if left could very easily result in premature wear and failure even if the side shake is acceptable now) and relubricate with fresh oil. 

A dedicated 5 spoke wheel puller is the best way to go as it pulls at the hub, eliminating the risk of deforming the wheel, but not the only way. The important thing is to pull the wheel straight up with no twisting or canting of the wheel since the arbor is brittle and will snap sooner than bend.

This can be achieved using two thin blades worked under the wheel from opposite sides to gradually wedge the wheel up.

You may need to protect the bridge with some paper or tape to prevent scratches, and you need to use blades that are only very slightly thicker than the gap between the wheel and the bridge because you need to progress slowly, and don't be tempted to twist the blades. As long as the force is straight up in line with the arbor, and gradual enough to not deform the wheel, you should be alright. 

2 hours ago, Marc said:

In order to properly service the movement you absolutely should remove the wheel so that you can clean any contaminated or degraded oil away (which if left could very easily result in premature wear and failure even if the side shake is acceptable now) and relubricate with fresh oil. 

A dedicated 5 spoke wheel puller is the best way to go as it pulls at the hub, eliminating the risk of deforming the wheel, but not the only way. The important thing is to pull the wheel straight up with no twisting or canting of the wheel since the arbor is brittle and will snap sooner than bend.

This can be achieved using two thin blades worked under the wheel from opposite sides to gradually wedge the wheel up.

You may need to protect the bridge with some paper or tape to prevent scratches, and you need to use blades that are only very slightly thicker than the gap between the wheel and the bridge because you need to progress slowly, and don't be tempted to twist the blades. As long as the force is straight up in line with the arbor, and gradual enough to not deform the wheel, you should be 

 

If removed-reinstalled for every service the hole on the minute wheel tends to wear(degrade if you will ) and fall off its arbour within weeks or month after re-installation, I must say though, peening the hole on the minute wheel helps some while furthur degrades the hole.

Admittedly specialist have the tools, knowledge and the skill to do the task without creating the said new problem, which is not expected of OP at this stage.

Would you also give advice how best to avoid degredation of the hole on the minute wheel. TIA

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10 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

If removed-reinstalled for every service the hole on the minute wheel tends to wear

The interference fit of the wheel to the pinion would indeed degrade after each removal/re-installation but it would take a good many removals for this to become a problem, and it would be a progressive change. You would be able to tell when you re-installed the wheel if the fit was in any way loose, in which case a quick tap with a hole closing stake solves the problem, and if it is done with care it doesn't damage the hole or the wheel.

 

10 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

and fall off its arbour within weeks or month after re-installation

If the fit is good when you re-install the wheel it will stay good until the wheel is next removed; it won't slacken off a week after re-installation unless something else pulls it off.

Given that the OP has stated that he has tried to pull very hard and the wheel won't move it is reasonable to assume that the interference fit is still in good order, in which case there should be no problem with removing and re-installing the wheel as part of the service without any need to close the hole, and as I said, this should be done if the watch is to be properly serviced.

The purpose of regularly servicing the movement is to prevent damage through wear and tear. If this wheel is only removed when excessive side shake is found then the damage has already happened, resulting in the need to re-bush the pivot hole in the bridge, requiring significantly more tooling and experience than closing a hole with a hole closing punch.

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3 hours ago, Marc said:

The interference fit of the wheel to the pinion would indeed degrade after each removal/re-installation but it would take a good many removals for this to become a problem, and it would be a progressive change. You would be able to tell when you re-installed the wheel if the fit was in any way loose, in which case a quick tap with a hole closing stake solves the problem, and if it is done with care it doesn't damage the hole or the wheel.

 

If the fit is good when you re-install the wheel it will stay good until the wheel is next removed; it won't slacken off a week after re-installation unless something else pulls it off.

Given that the OP has stated that he has tried to pull very hard and the wheel won't move it is reasonable to assume that the interference fit is still in good order, in which case there should be no problem with removing and re-installing the wheel as part of the service without any need to close the hole, and as I said, this should be done if the watch is to be properly serviced.

The purpose of regularly servicing the movement is to prevent damage through wear and tear. If this wheel is only removed when excessive side shake is found then the damage has already happened, resulting in the need to re-bush the pivot hole in the bridge, requiring significantly more tooling and experience than closing a hole with a hole closing punch.

Thank you Marc.

@Maxppp  so I apply some penetrating oil and let soak until the puller arrives.

Perhaps you were thinking removal of the wheel is neccessary for disassembly, it is not, but according to Marc, it should be removed for the sake of a good clean and inspection. Good luck.

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