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Removing a dial from a rusty movement


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Hello Forum,

My daughter's friend ask me if I could help fixing his watch, a vintage Breitling Unidate...

I accepted the challenge and took the watch:

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After great efforts, I could finally remove the case back... 

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The movement is in really bad condition - tried to clean it a bit but gave up given the poor condition 

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I found a NOS Felsa 692 movement, which seems to be identical to ther Breitling, so my plan was to recover the dial and replace the movement in order to get a working watch ... 

Problem: the screws that fix the dial feet are completely rusty and impossible to unscrew them to liberate the dial:

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Close-up of one screw:

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What would you guys recommend ? I'm ok with cutting the feet and soldier new feet to the dial but don't even have a clue on how to do that or where to start ...  :( 

Any advice or opinion is most welcome :) 

Thanks !

 

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Would it be possible to get a thin blade between the dial and movement to "saw" thru the dial feet?  Maybe even a jeweler's saw blade.  Alternatively, judging for the amount of rust, perhaps gently lever on the dial at the feet might just snap them right off.  High risk, but not many alternatives that I can see.  Drilling the dial screws out may not do any good given the amount of rust.

 

Very sad to see a nice watch in that condition.


Good Luck,


RMD

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I would try and remove and salvage as much as possible from the movement side first, then let what cannot be removed sit for a few days in a shallow dish of rust remover, with the fluid level just below the edge of the dial. Then see if you can gently pry the dial away. Who knows, you might be lucky and not have to get medieval on it's ass. If that doesn't work, I'd try to drill the screws out with the aim of leaving the feet intact, maybe again in combination with rust remover.

It looks really bad, but maybe one or two bits are good for spares. The dial and hands especially have come off lightly and look good, considering.

I think your daughter's friend owes you a beer.

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Remove parts until you see the bottom of dial feet, apply heat to it only( solder gun) the apply penetrating oil let soak over night, next you alternatively tap on the bottom of each foot, if that didn't work, nothing will and you got to amputate the guy.

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If you already got a replacement movement, why just not carefully drill those rusty screws away ?
Drilling carefully and a small bit at the time would get the dial off without harming it.

Edited by HSL
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I don't have much experience...pretty new. I can only share with you, what I just recently encountered. Bought a basket case lot of lady Elgins and Bulovas off the good ol ebay with my theory of practicing and learning on small, old movements and go from there. Helluva challenge I picked for myself....anyway, ran into this ancient Elgin rusted SHUT. depending what you have access to for chemicals, I mixed a little Marvel oil, PB oil and a little lighter fluid(Naptha) and let it soak overnight. Not only did it come apart, but all the rusty screws and wheels also came free and I was able to even keep some of the screws and parts maybe for later projects. Ok, ok ya got me-I cheated a bit and applied a little heat here and there with a lighter. Point being, as a beginner I think I touched on a few similarities of other folks on here. As for the unrecognizable screws, they're done. Drill(got a Dremel or even a pin vise with a burr or tiny drill bit?)or like others have said, try and gently pry. Ya might get lucky. While you're consuming the well-deserved beers, show the person these posts and what you're up against. Good luck and I'd sure like to hear the outcome for my own future reference cuz I still have a buttload of those basket cases to get medieval on. Hold my beer.....

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If that were my movement, then I'd sit the movent dial-up in enough acid to reach into the dial screws and dissolve them entirely. You would need to make sure the acid never reached the front of the dial.

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If the base plate of the movement will be discarded afterwards then you can do whatever you like to release the dial.. a dremel springs to mind - you could try to drill out the screws, but realistically you could drill carefully around them, anywhere you like, as long as the dial is protected.. brass vs rusted steel, not that tough to cut through but the cutter may grab on the rusty steel as you go between rust and flakes of intact steel within it.

Try to remove and save any bits which aren't totally destroyed.

I think protecting the dial is the most challenging aspect of this, be it from chemicals (and their vapor), or tools and holding the movement.

Edited by JGrainger
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Hello All,

A BIG thank you for all your messages and great advice and apologies for my delayed reply but it has been a very complicated week professionaly and not much time left for the hobby :( (A special thank you also for the very professional advice regarding the beers, well noted and will definitely be followed :) ).

I'm proceeding with the dial removing today and will try to put your ideas to work and will report back later today ... keep figers crossed to save the dial.

A few answers:

On 5/14/2020 at 4:33 PM, rduckwor said:

Would it be possible to get a thin blade between the dial and movement to "saw" thru the dial feet? 

Unfortunately not, as the dial is curved at the edges and "recovers"  the movement not leaving any space for such intervention

On 5/14/2020 at 6:11 PM, Klassiker said:

I would try and remove and salvage as much as possible from the movement side first, then let what cannot be removed sit for a few days in a shallow dish of rust remover, with the fluid level just below the edge of the dial.

Same problem, if the fluid is below the edge of the dial I'm not sure there will be enough contact with the screws ... maybe I'll proceed this way after trying another method.

On 5/14/2020 at 6:35 PM, Nucejoe said:

Remove parts until you see the bottom of dial feet, apply heat to it only( solder gun) the apply penetrating oil let soak over night, next you alternatively tap on the bottom of each foot

I will try this method first - I think the advantage is also that, if I can get to see the bottom of the feet it will also facilitate the other method of drilling "over" the crews.

On 5/14/2020 at 6:43 PM, HSL said:

If you already got a replacement movement, why just not carefully drill those rusty screws away ?
Drilling carefully and a small bit at the time would get the dial off without harming it.

Indeed, its just that I'm not sure I have the right tools (and expertise) to proceed with this method and not damaging the dial ... but I believe I might have no other choice in the end

On 5/14/2020 at 6:48 PM, watchweasol said:

Felsa 692 tech sheet attached

Thank you very much for this !

On 5/14/2020 at 8:37 PM, MechanicMike said:

Good luck and I'd sure like to hear the outcome for my own future reference cuz I still have a buttload of those basket cases to get medieval on.

Thank you for sharing your experience and photos! And like I said, I will definitely follow the beer's advice (whatever the outcome :) )

On 5/15/2020 at 1:56 AM, rodabod said:

You would need to make sure the acid never reached the front of the dial.

Thank you but like I said before the dial is quite curved at the edge making it impossible to get the acid to reach the screws without risking to damage the dial ...

On 5/15/2020 at 2:33 PM, JGrainger said:

but realistically you could drill carefully around them, anywhere you like, as long as the dial is protected..

Thank you for your advice, indeed I beleive this will be the kind of last action possible if all other less invasive methods fail ... 

 

Thank you all again for the great advices, I'll post later today or tomorrow with the results  ! :) 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here’s a few photos of why I sometimes resort to. Movement is taken from an Omega which would be worth around £6k in good condition, so I’m trying to conserve it as best as possible. 
 

I’ve used a plastic rod to apply a droplet of “rust remover” acid, a little bit like you would apply oil with an oiler. This produces a black sludge over a few hours which is removed and then the process is repeated. 
 

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