Balance stops with dial side up

[Bopmd]

Hello

I've read through a few threads and most of the answers to a similar question was that either the watch was dirty or the pivots were broken. In my case all of the pivots look as they should and the watch has been cleaned several times. 

When the dial side was facing down the movement ticked for hours with good amplitude, but whenever i turned the movement the balance would stop. I tried to put the balance on the main plate to see how it swings and the same happens so the problem must be in the balance right? I tried to inspect the jewels and they seem to be in a different size. Could that be the problem? And if so, where can I find the right ones for a certina 28-161 movement? 

[Nucejoe]

If the wrong jewel has larger hole so the relevent pivot gets inside respective hole, the wqatch would not stop, but if smaller so pivot wont get in the hole, its like having no jewel, it will stop, an indication is that you see pivot easily jump out of position, the position which might have felt like pivot is in the hole. I take the relevent end stone out and check if the pivot is in the hole, you would see its tip. The wrong jewel should be replaced anyway.

[AndyHull]

20 minutes ago, Bopmd said:

I tried to put the balance on the main plate to see how it swings and the same happens so the problem must be in the balance right?

The problem is most likely associated with the balance, but the question then becomes which part of the balance is causing the issue.

Is the hairspring flat?

Does it foul the balance cock when dial up (hairspring collet moved perhaps)?
Have you inspected the balance jewels under the microscope?
Are they *both* in the correct way up?
How much end shake do you have?
How did you judge the balance pivots to be good?
Is there something trapped between the balance cock and the main plate?

Is the balance cock damaged or bent in some way?
Do you have a service manual for the movement? This would let you see if there are differences between the top and bottom jewels.
Have you tried swapping the top and bottom jewels?

Are you absolutely *sure* the jewels are in the correct way up?

Edited May 10, 2020 by AndyHull

[margolisd]

I would say it's most likely one of these:

The balance / hairspring is touching something in DU.

The pallet fork's safety pin is slightly bent upwards and is catching the roller jewel when DU.

I find it helpful to listen to the movement. Put it on your ear DD. Then tilt your head slowly with it still on your ear and move to DU. If you hear anything odd it may be one of these two.

Edited May 10, 2020 by margolisd
Typo

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, Bopmd said:

the watch has been cleaned several times

always helpful to have background history of the watch? Was it running fine before you touched it or was it not running. Plus I find that's a really interesting quote that I have  the watch cleaned several times? then in the cleaning process did you take the balance jewels out?

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_28_161

[Nucejoe]

Movements that came with different size balance jewels are rare. I would check the data sheet to make sure about this caliber. Just as a test, dose it stop face down , if you were to switch the jewels around? Balance axial positions changes since there is end shake, so any of the above mentioned parts can rub.

[Bopmd]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

always helpful to have background history of the watch? Was it running fine before you touched it or was it not running. Plus I find that's a really interesting quote that I have  the watch cleaned several times? then in the cleaning process did you take the balance jewels out?

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_28_161

It was not running before I touched the watch. That's why I took it apart. It seems that a previous owner had put some screws in wrong so I thought that the jewels might be wrong too. 

I cleaned it several times to see if the problem helped. When i clean a movement I first clean the balance with the jewels in and then clean the jewels separately. I tried swapping the order of the jewels, but one of them is too big for the shock absorber spring. 

 

Thanks for the answers! 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Bopmd

[Bopmd]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Movements that came with different size balance jewels are rare. I would check the data sheet to make sure about this caliber. Just as a test, dose it stop face down , if you were to switch the jewels around? Balance axial positions changes since there is end shake, so any of the above mentioned parts can rub.

Where do I check that? I've tried reading through some documents, but haven't read anything about different size of the jewels. 

I think swapping the order of the jewels, but one of the is too big for the shock absorbers spring. Before taking out the jewels the end shake seemed to be good. I'm no expert though.. I'll compare it to another movement when I have time. Thanks for the answers! 

[Bopmd]

16 hours ago, margolisd said:

I would say it's most likely one of these:

The balance / hairspring is touching something in DU.

The pallet fork's safety pin is slightly bent upwards and is catching the roller jewel when DU.

I find it helpful to listen to the movement. Put it on your ear DD. Then tilt your head slowly with it still on your ear and move to DU. If you hear anything odd it may be one of these two.

I'll listen as soon as I have time. The hairspring and balance wheel was flat and looked good as far as I remember. It doesn't stop instantly after I've turned the movement. It swings back and forth a few times before losing speed and eventually stopping.

[Bopmd]

17 hours ago, AndyHull said:

The problem is most likely associated with the balance, but the question then becomes which part of the balance is causing the issue.

Is the hairspring flat?

Does it foul the balance cock when dial up (hairspring collet moved perhaps)?
Have you inspected the balance jewels under the microscope?
Are they *both* in the correct way up?
How much end shake do you have?
How did you judge the balance pivots to be good?
Is there something trapped between the balance cock and the main plate?

Is the balance cock damaged or bent in some way?
Do you have a service manual for the movement? This would let you see if there are differences between the top and bottom jewels.
Have you tried swapping the top and bottom jewels?

Are you absolutely *sure* the jewels are in the correct way up?

The hairspring is flat and it doesn't seem to touch the balancecock with dialside up.

I don't own a microscope, but the jewels look like any other jewel through a loupe. 

I haven't checked if the balancecock is bent. I'll see next time I have some spare time. 

Nothing is between the cock and the main plate. 

I judged the pivots to be good by looking at them and testing end shake. 

One of the jewels wont fit under the shock absorber spring unless I use force to put them in their place so I haven't tested that. 

Thanks for the answer! 

[AndyHull]

9 minutes ago, Bopmd said:

One of the jewels wont fit under the shock absorber spring unless I use force to put them in their place so I haven't tested that.

Are the two (bottom and top) jewel arrangements identical?

Did you manage to find a service manual or parts list to check this?

[HSL]

Most of the times when one got a no runner with the dial side up the culprit with a high percentage is a worn down lower balance pivot.
The pivot wears down because of lack of lubrication on the jewel. the balance might look good but with a closer inspection one can see the pivot is slightly shorter. This results in a break force when the cone of the balance staff hits the collar of the lower jewel setting.   
Sometimes one even can see a small pitting in the lower jewel which also adds to the effect, either way one have to replace the balance staff and in the latter case the jewel too. This is what happens when you run an less serviced watch "bone dry" little like driving a car without motor oil.
To test this theory you could slowly tilt your movement and in a certain angle until the balance will dropp down from the collar and the watch begins ticking again, if you slowly tilt it the opposite way it will stop again.

Edited May 11, 2020 by HSL

[watchweasol]

Hi  I have attached the service sheet for the certina, but no mention of the disimilarity of the jewels in the balance.

Certina 28-151, 28-161.pdf

[watchweasol]

Hi From information gathered it looks like the 28-161 is derived from the 28-15and 28-16 so I have included the tech sheet on the 28-15 and 28-16.  By the looks of it the 28-15 was the base unit and the other two sheets highlight the differences from the base unit.  the 28-15 tech sheet has listed the upper and lower jewel settings .  Hope this information helps the cause              cheers.

1813_Certina 28-15.pdf 1814_Certina 28-16 (3).pdf

[Bopmd]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi From information gathered it looks like the 28-161 is derived from the 28-15and 28-16 so I have included the tech sheet on the 28-15 and 28-16.  By the looks of it the 28-15 was the base unit and the other two sheets highlight the differences from the base unit.  the 28-15 tech sheet has listed the upper and lower jewel settings .  Hope this information helps the cause              cheers.

1813_Certina 28-15.pdf 1.44 MB · 4 downloads 1814_Certina 28-16 (3).pdf 1.01 MB · 1 download

Ok, thanks. But I'm still struggling with reading it. I can't tell if the jewels are different

[Bopmd]

5 hours ago, HSL said:

Most of the times when one got a no runner with the dial side up the culprit with a high percentage is a worn down lower balance pivot.
The pivot wears down because of lack of lubrication on the jewel. the balance might look good but with a closer inspection one can see the pivot is slightly shorter. This results in a break force when the cone of the balance staff hits the collar of the lower jewel setting.   
Sometimes one even can see a small pitting in the lower jewel which also adds to the effect, either way one have to replace the balance staff and in the latter case the jewel too. This is what happens when you run an less serviced watch "bone dry" little like driving a car without motor oil.
To test this theory you could slowly tilt your movement and in a certain angle until the balance will dropp down from the collar and the watch begins ticking again, if you slowly tilt it the opposite way it will stop again.

Oh, okay. That makes a lot of sense. What yoi described happens. Guess I'll have to buy a staking set.... I've heard you can purchase just a block and some stakes. Would that be enough for the job? Ill of course practice with some scrap movements before attempting to do it on the right movement. 

[Nucejoe]

There you are, tech sheet courtesy of our data sheet man watchweasol. If you suspect that staff cone is rubbing on jewel setting collet like HSL points out, I flip the end stone over to face the dome side of end stone towards pivot, this in effect compensates for the wear portion of the pivot, saves you the trouble of staffing and building a balance complete. Works fine, I don't know if the approach is frowned upon in scholastic teachings or is acceptable, but works for a good ten years. Good luck.

[Nucejoe]

watchweasol points out the seperate listing of upper and lower jewels, you can also look up parts listed by julesborel.com, I gather from listing and parts number if jewels are the same or different.

[Bopmd]

On 5/11/2020 at 10:58 PM, Nucejoe said:

There you are, tech sheet courtesy of our data sheet man watchweasol. If you suspect that staff cone is rubbing on jewel setting collet like HSL points out, I flip the end stone over to face the dome side of end stone towards pivot, this in effect compensates for the wear portion of the pivot, saves you the trouble of staffing and building a balance complete. Works fine, I don't know if the approach is frowned upon in scholastic teachings or is acceptable, but works for a good ten years. Good luck.

I flipped the stone and I'm very happy with the result. Thank you very much for the tip. 

[Nucejoe]

45 minutes ago, Bopmd said:

I flipped the stone and I'm very happy with the result. Thank you very much for the tip. 

You are welcome. ya it works, but I think @nickelsilverwill shoot me this time,  lets ask him if he approves flipping the end stone over to reduce end shake ,  I have been giving this advice for long without knowing if it is technically acceptable. 

When you get your staking set, the correct approach would be to replace the staff.

Regards

[bsoderling]

There you are, tech sheet courtesy of our data sheet man watchweasol.If you suspect that staff cone is rubbing on jewel setting collet like HSL points out, I flip the end stone over to face the dome side of end stone towards pivot, this in effect compensates for the wear portion of the pivot, saves you the trouble of staffing and building a balance complete. Works fine, I don't know if the approach is frowned upon in scholastic teachings or is acceptable, but works for a good ten years. Good luck.

This is a brilliant idea! And if not entirely according to the books, it at least serves as an excellent diagnostic tool.

I am currently struggling with a couple of older Pierce 103’s with exactly this problem; perfectly decent amplitude dial down, barely swings dial up. But then these are no-shock proof items and flipping end stone doesn’t work as it’s mounted in a setting.

But if the problem is really the staff shoulder rubbing on the hole jewel, would a reasonable try-out be to push the hole jewel a few microns towards the end stone ? This obviously depend on there being some space left between the jewel and end stone.

The main difference here seems to be that flipping end stone will actually reduce end shake whereas pushing the jewel out will not.

I do have the jewel setting tool and should be able to do this but wanted some feedback on the thought first.




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[JohnR725]

23 minutes ago, bsoderling said:

I am currently struggling with a couple of older Pierce 103’s with exactly this problem; perfectly decent amplitude dial down, barely swings dial up. But then these are no-shock proof items and flipping end stone doesn’t work as it’s mounted in a setting.

one of the minor problems with watches is assuming that they're all identical so one person's problems are exactly the same as yours.

Realistically if you're having a problem in dial up you need to look at the pivots themselves are they ok are they broken. Or are the jewels bad or is there some other problem.  stuff like this comes up all the time with older watches especially ones that don't have a shock protection where basically the staff needs to be changed. Or you could polish the pivots that's another fix for problems like this if it is the pivot.

 

[Nucejoe]

Agree with John, staff replacement was more common back in the no-shock proof days, in this case I gathered OP is unlikely to have staking set.

This approach also comes useful in cases of non-replacable staffs.

[bsoderling]

Thanks guys, I got you...I guess every short cut has its limitations.

It would be great though, to have a method to determine if a slightly worn pivot is the cause for problem also on these movements without shock protection, without going to the effort of sourcing a bal-staff and staking it in. I have done that and succeded but also failed miserably. And these have been clear broken pivots and there’s been no choise.

It’s probably off topic but another thing that annoys me on these Pierce movements is that there’s no screw driver slot in the timing pin boot and I have to grab the thing sideways with pliers to turn it and release the h/s. Scary operation as it’s real easy to slip an damage h/s or the timing pin.

Was there a tool for this to go on top of the boot in the old days?




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[HSL]

The only downside with tips and trix like this is the solution will make a shockproof solution to a less shockproof one.
The design of the most the springs are designed to hold a doomed jewel and all of a sudden you dont have one, instead it rests on the edges of the spring which makes it more rigid and stiff, a shock will probably not just break the pivot bet also damage the jewel.
Personaly I wouldn't do things like this or even recommend it. (The grumpy HSL speaking  )