ORIENT Calibre 46E40 Service Walkthrough

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

The graph is a bit irregular in some of the positions (could that be the escape wheel having too much side shake?)

somewhere else in the discussion group is a discussion about Seiko oiling the pallet fork pivots. We would have to try an experiment like oiling your pivots to see if it makes the waveform look prettier?

[jdm]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

if you look in the Seiko service guide or the time module which is the OEM division of Seiko guide it will tell you how to put the automatic weight on. But usually the time module guide seems to do a better presentation.

The issue I was trying to highlight is that Orient uses a different mechanism.

The Seiko rotor has an embedded bearing and a theeted wheel which engages on the reduction wheel, and there you do the alignment.

But on the Orient first the ball bearing is installed with its retainer, as I said before there are no holes or other markings on the eccentric wheel. Then the rotor is fitted to the cut on the bearing axle and I believe it can take two possible positions 180 deg apart.

So one can't use the Seiko  instructions per se, but from these and with a mov.t at hand one could derive what is the ideal eccentric position relative to rotor.

Edited May 11, 2020 by jdm

[meanoldmanning]

The orient mov’ts like the one in this thread all appear to have a automatic framework very similar to the Suwa mov’ts like the 63xx series, which is quite different from the 7 series movements winding mech.


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[TrungNguyen]

Very helpful information for a trainee like me, especially in diafix (i can't put it back after take it out)

[JohnR725]

possibly not helpful? So I went and looked up some of the older Seiko's and you're right there is no indication of where the weight goes but on this particular tech sheet may be it doesn't matter which is the unhelpful part. so casually on the drawing where it shows the backside indications are it doesn't matter. But if you read the next is a reference and the wording was just really strange I didn't notice it until I saw the top side. In this particular movement if you look at how the automatics attached it has two screws it can only go one way. Which is basically the weird wording in the text that everything was set up so it can only go one way. So this is for a 6106.

then I went back and looked at more tech sheets and on the type like Peoria with a single screw holding the weight in place and no intermediate gear there is zero reference to position. So my guess is the weight is probably heavy enough that it doesn't really matter. I suppose ideally there might be a better position. Then those that it does matter seem to be the ones with the intermediate gear so maybe the wages smaller lighter thinner they change something that that has to be right or it doesn't work right. So that's your unhelpful answer and guess.

 

[VWatchie]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:41 PM, JohnR725 said:

We would have to try an experiment like oiling your pivots to see if it makes the waveform look prettier?

With the amplitude I'm getting I'm not hesitant to try it and see where it goes. Considering that the ORIENTs share the same basic design as the SEIKOs (?) I was expecting a much lower amplitude. Not because that's my experience but because WRT is full of posts with the words "SEIKO", "low", and "amplitude". I'll give it a try eventually and will report back (with pictures) the effect on amplitude and the somewhat erratic waveform on my timing machine.

(OT: the most perfect graphs (perfectly straight) I ever got was from three NOS Unitas 6498 movements after service)

EDIT: As seen in my assembly pictures I replaced the mainspring with a general ressorts mainspring. The replacement spring is about 30 mm longer and 0.005 mm thicker than the original spring. It was the best fit I could find. I wonder how much that contributes to the high amplitude I got!?

Edited May 14, 2020 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:44 PM, jdm said:

Then the rotor is fitted to the cut on the bearing axle and I believe it can take two possible positions 180 deg apart.

That is correct. I've set the oscillating weights in both positions (180 degrees apart) but I can't say I noticed any difference by just looking and listening to the rotor swinging. I don't think it matters with this design, but I would need to study and ponder the action of the pawl levers and the transmission wheel to be sure. If I do, I'll let you know.

[meanoldmanning]

That is correct. I've set the oscillating weights in both positions (180 degrees apart) but I can't say I noticed any difference by just looking and listening to the rotor swinging. I don't think it matters with this design, but I would need to study and ponder the action of the pawl levers and the transmission wheel to be sure. If I do, I'll let you know.

I agree it doesn’t seem to matter on this design, though I tend to set the weight on the resting position nearest the stem.


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[CaptCalvin]

On 5/11/2020 at 5:25 AM, Jon said:

I read that dipping the whole fork will cover the pivots and horn with epilame also and have seen pictures of epilame dust after some months after service on those areas, considerably affecting amplitude.

I either dip the end of the pallet jewels in a small pot of epilame, one at a time for about a minute or paint it on the end of the jewel with an oiler. Careful not to get it on the pivots.

I stand the fork up in some rodico whilst painting it on.

This keeps any epilame off other parts of the fork.

How do you get enough epilame on an oiler for it to not all evaporate away while the oiler makes its trip to the intended part? Also I dont recommend leaving any amount of epilame reserve in open air for as long as you can manage, unless you can get plenty of it for cheap or dont mind evaporating money.

I use a small needle syringe for application. I clean the syringe, draw from the bottle the smallest amount I can as fast as I can and close the bottle quickly. The epilame doesnt evaporate so quickly when inside the syringe so I can take my time to precisely apply.

Edited May 15, 2020 by CaptCalvin

[CaptCalvin]

With regards to the rotor position indexing with a reduction wheel that's irrelevant as there is none. It uses the pre-7s layout for automatic winding if you want to think in Seiko terms where the pawls are linked directly to the rotor axle, and the axle + rotor are keyed in a way where the position of the eccentric is always optimal in relation to the rotor. No need to worry about properly indexing the rotor.

[Watchtime]

nice job, tons of work, thanks for sharing this. I am amazed about the amount of dust in the movement

[Jon]

13 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

How do you get enough epilame on an oiler for it to not all evaporate away while the oiler makes its trip to the intended part? Also I dont recommend leaving any amount of epilame reserve in open air for as long as you can manage, unless you can get plenty of it for cheap or dont mind evaporating money.

I use a small needle syringe for application. I clean the syringe, draw from the bottle the smallest amount I can as fast as I can and close the bottle quickly. The epilame doesnt evaporate so quickly when inside the syringe so I can take my time to precisely apply.

I  dip the oiler into a 20 ml bottle of epilame. It has no problem getting on the jewel in time, as it does evapourate quickly, but not that quick. Or I put .5 ml in a small  aluminium pot and dip the jewels in. There's always s drop left to pour back, which shows me how quick it really does evaporate

[CaptCalvin]

1 hour ago, Jon said:

I  dip the oiler into a 20 ml bottle of epilame. It has no problem getting on the jewel in time, as it does evapourate quickly, but not that quick. Or I put .5 ml in a small  aluminium pot and dip the jewels in. There's always s drop left to pour back, which shows me how quick it really does evaporate

When I try that there's almost always no trace of epilame left on the oiler by the time i get it to the jewel, unless I'm lightening fast which isn't really compatible with precision application. Maybe we're using different brands? I use something called Episurf -NOE from Surfactis.

[JohnR725]

another recommended method is the bottle found that the link below or the equivalent. Or if you already have a small bottle of your epilame just use the dropper to take it out. Then with a small drop at the end of the dropper put pallet stones into that.

then your epilame wasn't a brand I heard of but it is found that the second link which is a horological site. Then third link look at all the choices and this doesn't even cover all the other brands that exist out there. then there is the other problem the actual surface treatment substances of very tiny percentage with the rest being a solvent of some kind. the problem is the solvents evaporate at all sorts of different rates from super superfast to slow. this is why the recommended methods of application of changed because they assume you're using the correct version. The early versions with super fast evaporation rates tended to get cold leading into water condensation and rust.

https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/kimble-amber-glass-bottle-with-dropper-150.006.html

https://boley.de/en/shop/7790.epilame-episurf/1838283215.epilame

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/epilames

[VWatchie]

19 hours ago, Watchtime said:

I am amazed about the amount of dust in the movement

Hmm... that sentence puzzles me. Can you elaborate?

[Endeavor]

This walk-through belongs among the best I've seen for a long time.

Highly detailed with excellent pictures and a great end-result. A nice looking watch which you can wear with proud.

Well done !!

[VWatchie]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:41 PM, JohnR725 said:

somewhere else in the discussion group is a discussion about Seiko oiling the pallet fork pivots. We would have to try an experiment like oiling your pivots to see if it makes the waveform look prettier?

So, I have now oiled the pallet staff pivots. Below are the before and after pictures.

I used an exceedingly small amount of Moebius 9010 on both jewels, not more than what would look like a ring around finger. I know it is near impossible, but it still feels like I might have underoiled. Doing the oiling I used my 40X stereo microscope which is truly a massive help. (This type of oiling reminds me of target shooting which I used to do, where you need to be able to breathe deeply and calmly, hold your breath, relax and be extremely focused on the target)

I do not know what conclusions to draw. In some positions it looks like a slight improvement. I was surprised to see that it did not affect amplitude. If anything, the average amplitude even increased with 5 degrees. I guess a thicker oil, perhaps Moebius 9104 HP-1300, would have been a better option for creating a bit of drag. Not sure I want to re oil the pivots again, but if I do, I will let you know the result.

Anyway, let me know your reflections!

EDIT: I guess most of you already know, but to be sure,  you will need to click on the images a couple of times to enlarge them.

Edited May 17, 2020 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

On 5/16/2020 at 4:25 PM, Endeavor said:

This walk-through belongs among the best I've seen for a long time.

Highly detailed with excellent pictures and a great end-result. A nice looking watch which you can wear with proud.

Well done !!

Thank you for your very kind words @Endeavor. They mean a lot to me. Very inspiring! 

After my previous walkthrough (which still hasn't received a single response) I wasn't sure anyone appreciated my work at all, so I've been very surprised and inspired by the attention this walkthrough got. Thank you all! 

[JohnR725]

lubrication in horology is such a interesting subject. If you do not oil at all at least for a little while the watch runs pretty decent because oil does have a dampening effect. Of course with time without lubrication it will wear out especially if its metal on metal bearings.

So the theory on pallet fork lubrication being bad is the dampening effect. Then if the oil gets or goes bad with time like the old organic oils than the effect would be very dramatic. I think the more interesting thing to try would be I think it's 9000 the oil for quartz watches. Because quartz watch oil has to allow the quartz watch to step really fast or it's a problem. The pallet have to move really fast or it's a problem so it stands to reason the oil for quartz watches would work fine. the other reason they don't lubricate the fork is it's considered a non-rotating part it doesn't need lubrication.

I think the last time I played with lubricating pallet fork pivots you have to go really really heavy or a lot before you'll start seeing a problem.

 

[VWatchie]

On 5/11/2020 at 11:25 AM, Jon said:

I either dip the end of the pallet jewels in a small pot of epilame, one at a time for about a minute or paint it on the end of the jewel with an oiler. Careful not to get it on the pivots.

I used a small (tiny) paint brush to cover the pallet stones (and nothing else) with Moebius 8981 Fixodrop and just had them dry in the air. No problem with rapid evaporation whatsoever, and later applying the oil was quite a new experience. Instead of the oil spreading out on the impulse surface, as I'm used to making it difficult to assess the volume applied, it made a nice little bulge in the middle of the impulse surface. So, worked like a charm! 

On 5/11/2020 at 12:30 PM, JohnR725 said:

For pallet forks one of the recommendations is a dropper bottle the second link below shows an example.

Found this dropper bottle on eBay and will try it next. Seems very convenient.

[VWatchie]

On 5/18/2020 at 12:11 AM, JohnR725 said:

I think the more interesting thing to try would be I think it's 9000 the oil for quartz watches. Because quartz watch oil has to allow the quartz watch to step really fast or it's a problem. The pallet have to move really fast or it's a problem so it stands to reason the oil for quartz watches would work fine.

I happen to have a bottle of Moebius 9014 bought when servicing my father's ETA 955.112 quartz watch. I think I'll try it (a SEIKO 7S36B I'm currently servicing). I'm thinking it would protect the pallet staff pivots from unnecessary wear!?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

I'm thinking it would protect the pallet staff pivots from unnecessary wear!

The synthetic oils won't have any issues like going bad with time. On the other hand how many of us have ever seen worn pallet fork pivots?

[VWatchie]

12 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

On the other hand how many of us have ever seen worn pallet fork pivots?

Well I haven't, but then again my experience is limited so I was just assuming they could wear, and if oiling doesn't impede (or perhaps even improves) the amplitude (within limits) I guess no harm done.

[steve1811uk]

Great write up, well done. I recently serviced an Orient Star 48748 movement and it looks to me like most of the parts including the bridges are identical. I have three Orient stars, an Explorient, a modern semi Skeleton and the Outdoor watch, very underrated watches.

[canthus]

Off topic a bit, but re lube pallet fork pivots.  Having spent many years in lubricants and lubrication, I would agree that a synthetic oil would overall be better.  For this type of application the main criteria would be 'oil viscosity' (to maintain oil film),' internal friction' (to keep drag low) of the oil, and 'lubricity' (to improve sliding/reduce friction at surfaces).  There are many alternatives of oil and much discussion on these aspects.

For anyone interested in going deeper, I would suggest looking at the publication at the site below.  Whilst it is for heavier stuff than watches, it has some useful insights to lubricants and their usages.  There is a section dedicated to oil types and properties.

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/