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Pallet fork lubrication: pallets and pivots.


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22 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

as I was reading your response I had an idea? Lower amplitude could mean weaker mainspring. Weaker mainspring would be easier for the automatic mechanism to wind up. Then in real life Lori amplitude doesn't matter as long as it stays relatively consistent throughout the 24 hours. So in other words at the end of 24 hours you're still above 200° it doesn't really matter if it's consistent.

The issue is though, that the positional variation suffers more at lower amplitudes. It ideally needs to hover around 270 degrees for that reason. 

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4 hours ago, rodabod said:

The issue is though, that the positional variation suffers more at lower amplitudes. It ideally needs to hover around 270 degrees for that reason. 

I agree with theories but there has to be some reason why Seiko deliberately designs their watches not to run at the amplitude that the world knows would be preferred? I wonder if we could just email Seiko and ask them?

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6 hours ago, rodabod said:

Very interesting. Do you happen to know the true reason why they tend to run with relatively lower amplitude? Is it perhaps to avoid premature wear by running with less torque in the train?

It is obviously easier in many ways with watches which run with greater torque in the train. I recently found an untouched Smiths 12.15 from the late 40's which I believe had never been worn. Oiled it and set it running before cleaning to find it was banging out over 300 degrees and running excellently.

Just asked my Japanese friend about Seiko amplitude. He says "low amplitude" means around 270, 280, but not below 270. Nothing to do with a weaker mainspring, more to do with having fairly heavy locks on the escapement, which provides extra safety in the even of shocks, which can shift the roller table away from the fork.

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54 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Just asked my Japanese friend about Seiko amplitude. He says "low amplitude" means around 270, 280, but not below 270. Nothing to do with a weaker mainspring, more to do with having fairly heavy locks on the escapement, which provides extra safety in the even of shocks, which can shift the roller table away from the 

 Nickelsilver       " provides extra safety in the event of shocks"    Are we still talking about stability?     like maintains some degree of stability in the event of shock.     to stay out of range from overbanking?     

Another question I have been wanting to ask,  Am I right to think stability is one or the main advantage co- axial escapement? 

lock and drop and run to the drop are all doubled thence relevent frictions and energy waste, so what advantage dose co- axial brings. TIA

 

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28 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 Nickelsilver       " provides extra safety in the event of shocks"    Are we still talking about stability?     like maintains some degree of stability in the event of shock.     to stay out of range from overbanking?     

Another question I have been wanting to ask,  Am I right to think stability is one or the main advantage co- axial escapement? 

lock and drop and run to the drop are all doubled thence relevent frictions and energy waste, so what advantage dose co- axial brings. TIA

 

In a lever escapement the guard pin and fork horns keep the escapement from unlocking accidentally. In a situation where the watch receives a shock the balance can move away from the fork, which increases the guard pin and fork horn shake. If the escapement is setup so the locks are quite light, but still just safe, when the clearances increase during a shock the escapement could unlock and stop the watch.

 

Not sure why you think lock drop and run to the banking are doubled in a coaxial? The main advantage they say is more stability in timekeeping over time. I personally don't think it is more stable than a good lever escapement, and it is very touchy to work on and delicate as made by Omega; I see it as an interesting escapement but if I had to choose I would take a standard lever myself.

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42 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

In a lever escapement the guard pin and fork horns keep the escapement from unlocking accidentally. In a situation where the watch receives a shock the balance can move away from the fork, which increases the guard pin and fork horn shake. If the escapement is setup so the locks are quite light, but still just safe, when the clearances increase during a shock the escapement could unlock and stop the watch.

 

Not sure why you think lock drop and run to the banking are doubled in a coaxial? The main advantage they say is more stability in timekeeping over time. I personally don't think it is more stable than a good lever escapement, and it is very touchy to work on and delicate as made by Omega; I see it as an interesting escapement but if I had to choose I would take a standard lever myself.

There are two escape wheels and four pallet jewels mounted on one arbour( axis) in co- axial escapement, right?  which makes up two escapement mech, one delivers impulse as balance is heading anticlock the other when heading in clockwise direction.

 I thought each escapement would put up its own resistance( friction), however, true that both escapement don't deliver the same amount of energy to the impulse, neither face the same friction on run to the banking. More even distribution of energy through two impulses in one oscillation, results in more stability.

Haven't read the above anywhere, that is what I invisige and hope I make sense. 

Reggards.

 

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39 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

There are two escape wheels and four pallet jewels mounted on one arbour( axis) in co- axial escapement, right?

Almost right the Omega co-axial is inspired from the Daniels design, there is a quite good illustration of the Omega one on the tube.
Even if the escapement looks fantastic I belive in the device of minimizing the amount of components to make the solution more robust (like the swiss lever).

 

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In case you don't have the time, it's been a while since I watched these, but IIRC, the stability of the coaxial escapement comes from the pushing/rotating action of the jewels against the escape wheel rather than sliding as in a Swiss lever, and the degradation of oil over time. With a Swiss lever, as the oil becomes stickier over time, the sliding action of the escape wheel teeth across the pallet jewels results in changes in timekeeping characteristics. With the coaxial, the rotating/pushing action slides considerably less, and is thus considerably less affected by oil degradation. Since it's not/less subject to changes over time due to changes in lubricity, it's more stable.

Edited by spectre6000
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2 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

Swiss lever, and the degradation of oil over time.

the amusing aspect of this is that no oil is required in the original design but is used with Omega just not for lubrication.

page 10 of the attached PDF covers lubrication of this escapement. My understanding is Daniels was not happy about this at all.

cousinsuk.com Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication-4.pdf

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It's explained in the lecture. Again, it's been a while since I watched it, but as I recall he ultimately decided that oil was required not as lubrication, but because the surface of the steel escape wheel teeth oxidize slightly over time, and the polish would lessen, thereby increasing friction.The oil is an oxidation barrier.

Edited by spectre6000
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On 5/10/2020 at 8:33 AM, TrungNguyen said:

Can i ask you a question? Yesterday, i was servicing a orient 46943 movement, at first the amplitude was at 260 but after cleaning and lubrication, it dropped to 220, even 180 when I changed position. All parts are in good condition with no damage (i have checked very carefull). I have no idea where is the problem.

How did you grease the barrel and what grease did you use

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Thank you spectre and HS, got a chance to watch both videos, helpful as I am trying to understand co-axial escapement.

Few minutes into the lecture and he answers my question,  "reduction of 330degrees slide"  almost to nill.

Designers are always  fascinating and coaxial in particular looks smart to me.

Thanks again for your fruitful response.

Regards

Edited by Nucejoe
typo, I MEANT HSL
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12 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

It's explained in the lecture. Again, it's been a while since I watched it, but as I recall he ultimately decided that oil was required not as lubrication, but because the surface of the steel escape wheel teeth oxidize slightly over time, and the polish would lessen, thereby increasing friction.The oil is an oxidation barrier.

Right on spectro.    Improves stability over time.  

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One question that crops ip is if the pallet fork did not need oiling then why have oil sinks? My guess is that probably the jewels are used is several other locations (which require oiling) hence having one part simplifies the production supply chain.

Having said that, I have seen 6309 movements where the pallet fork jewels have no oil-sinks, ie flat on both sides... so I would guess that its not supposed to be oiled.

Oh well I never oil the pivots and they seem to work fine.

Anilv

 

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4 hours ago, anilv said:

One question that crops ip is if the pallet fork did not need oiling then why have oil sinks? My guess is that probably the jewels are used is several other locations (which require oiling) hence having one part simplifies the production supply chain.

Having said that, I have seen 6309 movements where the pallet fork jewels have no oil-sinks, ie flat on both sides... so I would guess that its not supposed to be oiled.

Oh well I never oil the pivots and they seem to work fine.

Anilv

 

Yes, it makes sense to have fewer types of jewels. But ultimately putting in the sink is an added process and it you're makes 10s or 100s of thousands of movements that can be a cost factor.

 

One other reason to have the sink is that the jewel hole length should be shorter than the pivot length. The sink shortens the hole length. To make the whole jewel short enough in height to be shorter than the pivot length makes it quite thin and fragile.

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A few years ago, I read a thread similar to this one.  Two professional watchmakers going back and forth.  A few hobbyists asking why.  When lubrication of the pivots was called for, the conclusion was to put a drop of 9010 on pithwood and plunge the pivots in the drop.  That seemed to satisfy all parties and everyone went away happy.  Well, as happy as can be achieved with regards to a lubricant thread. 

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1 hour ago, bklake said:

A few years ago, I read a thread similar to this one.  Two professional watchmakers going back and forth.  A few hobbyists asking why. 

if you go back far enough they would probably agree but today modern watchmakers have nifty timing machines and if this discussion comes up right away they jump on amplitude loss.

so here's your challenge for today everybody with a timing device that can read amplitude find a watch oil the pallet fork pivots see what happens? You may find it depends upon the watch that 9010 just won't have the desired effect and you're going to have to go heavier much much heavier try either D5 were one of the HP oils.

But if you go back far enough and the lubrication's are natural oils they have a habit of going bad relatively quickly. On a revolving pivots that's not to be much of an issue for a while at some point in time will be bad but not right away. But on the pivots that does not revolve and requires incredibly fast speed its a much bigger issue. but we of synthetic oils they're not supposed ever go bad so?

then Seiko's interesting not a lot of technical stuff but occasionally somebody makes a mistake like in the 4006 service manual step number 12 we actually get a numeric number of the minimum amplitude when the watch is fully wound up. In case you're curious step number nine is lubrication of the pallet and that's only the pallet stones with 9010 zero mention of oiling the pivots.

 

seiko 4006a 189.JPG

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I tried oiling the pallet staff of a Smiths Cal 60464 once. Didn’t make much difference. There’s potentially more of an issue when the watch ages though. I’ve found sticky pallet staffs before where someone has oiled them. 
 

There’s a similar argument regarding oiling quartz watches. Some say the train doesn’t need it as there is virtually zero torque and zero side-thrust. I’m inclined to mainly agree, though you can reduce the current consumption (relative to drag) by oiling with 9010. But what do things look like in 15-20 years’ time? And how would it compare if left dry? 

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3 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

The point being a super light application of oil rather than a standing drop?

Correct.  Now I remember more of the thread.  The light coat was to prevent rust or corrosion which some where concerned with.  One group was strict "no oil" another group pointed out various reasons why it needed oil.   Corrosion protection was a valid concern.  A light coat, not drop, addressed that concern.

Seemed reasonable to me, so I do that to Seiko that call for oil. 

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3 hours ago, rodabod said:

There’s a similar argument regarding oiling quartz watches. Some say the train doesn’t need it as there is virtually zero torque and zero side-thrust

originally when quartz watches came out no jewels and no oil. But metal on metal with no oil even on a quartz watch had issues. So they change to using oil and later jewels.

tthen they even came out with a special oil just for quartz watches.  so for quartz watch that this is definitely the oil a choice that I have it seems to work really well.

https://www.esslinger.com/moebius-9000-quartz-watch-oil-2-ml/

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3 hours ago, bklake said:

Correct.  Now I remember more of the thread.  The light coat was to prevent rust or corrosion which some where concerned with.  One group was strict "no oil" another group pointed out various reasons why it needed oil.   Corrosion protection was a valid concern.  A light coat, not drop, addressed that concern.

Back to the Daniels lecture. Interesting.

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16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then they even came out with a special oil just for quartz watches.  so for quartz watch that this is definitely the oil a choice that I have it seems to work really well.

https://www.esslinger.com/moebius-9000-quartz-watch-oil-2-ml/

I think the whole quartz watch oil thing was yet more snake oil by Moebius. It’s sold as a light oil that doesn’t degrade plastic. But 9010 doesn’t degrade plastic either. And is what I used for my BHI practical exam. 

I work on a lot of quartz watches, and granted they usually have at least one jewel, but the most common issue with them is gummed oil. Most of the ones I work on are around 40 years old and I’ve never experienced pivot/bush wear. I expect the oil will have dried out 20+ years ago. I’m sure other experiences may vary, but I’m still of the opinion that oil is beneficial in the short term, but only really to increase battery life slightly. It would be fantastic if we could run a long term test, but it would take decades. 

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3 hours ago, rodabod said:

I think the whole quartz watch oil thing was yet more snake oil by Moebius. It’s sold as a light oil that doesn’t degrade plastic. But 9010 doesn’t degrade plastic either. And is what I used for my BHI practical exam.

unfortunately my experience with the snake oil was different.. In the early days I had a Seiko watch that no oil didn't work 9010 at least I assume was using 9010 didn't work . But what we may be seeing is the difference between the viscosity of the two oils and this was a really tiny Seiko quartz watch which 9000 solved my problem.

then minor problem with using the BHI practical exam as an example. The problem with any of the exam watches are impatient students  that want the results quickly.. The only good test of lubrication is time and having students wait five years to see if their watches still running perfectly just isn't going to work.

out of curiosity looking at the ETA technical documents first watch I see is 4 7/8´´´ ETA E01.001 which works out perfectly nice small line watch.  looks like you're correct that ETA must think 9000 snake oil as they do not recommend it.. On the other hand they're not recommending 9010 either?  Their recommendation is Moebius 9014? 

 

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/specialities

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