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'67 Timex Viscount Automatic flub...


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Hi!

I'm well aware that Timex's don't get a lot of love and are known for not being so easy to work with, but mine was my father's and I'd like to get it working again. By the time I found it 3 weeks ago, I'm pretty sure it hadn't be worn in 35 years or so, but with a little wind and steady wearing, it started working and didn't keep bad time. At the end of a couple weeks, I'd noticed it wasn't keeping time and often running out of power after short periods. Eventually it stopped altogether.

Being an overconfident novice, I found its manual online, did some reading (here and other places), and proceeded to take it apart, thinking I was being careful and looking for the obvious. Well, I never did figure out what was wrong, but in the process of putting the watch together and apart several times (NOT easy lining up all the pins and stem assembly), I stretched the hairspring into a nice tornado and that essentially killed the project...

Ticked off that I screwed up my Dad's watch, I found another one like it on ebay that expressly said it didn't work. It's in equally good shape and when I opened it up, it was wet inside. I couldn't make out if it was water or a fine oil, but I ended up soaking the movement in lighter fluid hoping for a clean and a dry out. It did dry it out fine, but didn't magically start working even though I could see and feel that the mainspring held a wind. I used my oiler and Mobius oil in the divots of all the pivot points that I could reach, but still no movement. The balance wheel swung freely if tapped and the pallet lever rocked back and forth into the teeth of the escape wheel, but the escape wheel had no impetus of its own. If I flicked it forward, it would move the pallet lever and swing the balance wheel, but it wouldn't keep advancing.

So, I'm stuck with somewhere between the tensioned mainspring and the escape wheel energy not being transferred. As best as I can tell, all the gears are in their proper pivot points. Because I found a little rust color on the rotor plate, I put some liquid wrench on it until I could brush the discoloration off and then back into the lighter fluid to get the liquid wrench off. I don't know if the gears are rust bound or something and am trying to avoid taking the whole thing apart again as I'm concerned I'll just screw this one up as well.

Is there a way to check if the gear train is mobile in order to figure if it's locked up? As far as I know, power isn't getting from the barrel to the second wheel, but I have no way of telling as nothing is moving between there and the escape wheel. I can flick the escape wheel forward, but it's going to take a lot of flicks to get back to the second wheel and move it enough to figure if it's binding or not.

If it comes to it, I have a functioning model of this watch coming as well and I could at least get some elements of my father's watch on it to feel some connection, but I'd really like to get what I have running if I could.

Any tips (other than "throw them out, they're not meant to be repaired")? Beratement for the lighter fluid is expected... Thanks! - Jay

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Hi Jay  We would appreciate an introduction,   In response to your problem it would sound that the mainspring/train are at fault.  What model Timex is it.  The only way out of this impasse is ti take it to bits fit the mainspring and gear train leaving out the pallet/fork and the balance and checking the movement for freedom of rotation once you have power running through the movement  then assemble the rest, While its in bits check all the pivots on the wheels and that the mainspring is ok and not broken or dried out they do require a little oil as do the pivots, 

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Not to be harsh but, the first mistake was to start running a mechanical movement that had been sitting for 35 years with out  checking the lubrication. The next was to rely on only using lighter fluid.  anyway I agree with watchweasol's suggestion it would be good to check if the train runs freely less the balance and palet fork in place. Although  it does also come to mind that if you found rust in the movement there may very likely be metal loss.  no amount of cleaning can compensate for that.  

 

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12 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

Not to be harsh but, the first mistake was to start running a mechanical movement that had been sitting for 35 years with out  checking the lubrication. The next was to rely on only using lighter fluid.  anyway I agree with watchweasol's suggestion it would be good to check if the train runs freely less the balance and palet fork in place. Although  it does also come to mind that if you found rust in the movement there may very likely be metal loss.  no amount of cleaning can compensate for that.  

 

Not harsh. We don't know what we don't know. At that point, I didn't even know watches required lubrication!

I can check the train with my original parts without taking the replacement apart, probably learning some things in the process, so that will be today's fun.

The rust I found was more of a rust-colored discoloration, no pitting that I could see.

Somewhere between the pieces for two watches, I should be able to make a working model... providing I don't make things worse!

(I'm living in Jersey myself, Mo)

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19 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Jay  Just picked up on you Introduction  My appologies.

No worries. The movement is #31. No date, but automatic.

Lubrication is frustrating. The pin is so tiny that it never seems to pick-up any oil from the tiny bottle. Am I missing a trick?

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2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi JayS   No trick  the oiler should have a flat tip that holds the oil, have a look through your loupe at the tip to see the amount you will be surprised just how much there is.  Have a look at the attachment.     cheers

watch oiler.jpg

Perhaps I shouldn't have started with the red "fine" one! I guess I figured I could always add more, but dang it's tiny... Perhaps if I pulled a drop out onto some clean plastic, it would be easier to pick up some oil from the side instead of dipping into the tiny bottle?

Living and learning...

thanks.

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On 5/2/2020 at 3:40 PM, watchweasol said:

Hi Jay  We would appreciate an introduction,   In response to your problem it would sound that the mainspring/train are at fault.  What model Timex is it.  The only way out of this impasse is ti take it to bits fit the mainspring and gear train leaving out the pallet/fork and the balance and checking the movement for freedom of rotation once you have power running through the movement  then assemble the rest, While its in bits check all the pivots on the wheels and that the mainspring is ok and not broken or dried out they do require a little oil as do the pivots, 

It seems the train is fine, but the balance wheel just doesn't have enough oomph, running out of juice after one or two swings. The screw that applies tension to the balance wheel looked a bit eaten up, like it had been adjusted, but I don't know if it's too tight or too loose or if that's even the problem. I did attempt to oil the free-floating side, but it's really hard to tell if I'm even getting a drop on my extra fine oiler.

One thing I did notice was that the pallet fork wasn't correctly aligned on either side of the balance wheel pin. I was hoping that when I did align it, everything would spring to life, but I'm no Frankenstein.

I'm not sure what my next move should be and I'm hesitant to mess with the balance wheel due to my tornadoing the last one...

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Hi JayS    It is better to pick up the oil from an oil cup,  just put some oil in the cup(not much) and pick it up on the oiler tip,  that way you have more control on the ammount of oil.

The screw you mention 

, is it the one on the top of the balance?  If so this is the top "V"conic bearing that the staff runs in. There should be a little end shake on the staff (up/down) movement it must not be too tight of too slack either.  The problem you describe sounds like its too tight or the staff pivots are blunt. They can be dressed but you need a lathe , arkansas stone and experience.. Can you post some pictures of the movement please.        Cheers

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On 5/4/2020 at 4:50 AM, watchweasol said:

Hi JayS    It is better to pick up the oil from an oil cup,  just put some oil in the cup(not much) and pick it up on the oiler tip,  that way you have more control on the ammount of oil.

The screw you mention 

, is it the one on the top of the balance?  If so this is the top "V"conic bearing that the staff runs in. There should be a little end shake on the staff (up/down) movement it must not be too tight of too slack either.  The problem you describe sounds like its too tight or the staff pivots are blunt. They can be dressed but you need a lathe , arkansas stone and experience.. Can you post some pictures of the movement please.        Cheers

It's a #31 movement. No jewels, just pins. Giving the balance wheel a nudge may have it swinging 10 seconds or so, but there seems to be a difference depending on the orientation of the movement.

20200505_094818.jpg

20200505_094934.jpg

20200505_094855.jpg

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I've had a little improvement. In watching the escape wheel advance, I noticed it was sticking from time to time, so I ended up putting a little oil on the teeth and the pallet lever pins. Face-up, it runs for minutes at a time, but the balance wheel's motion is erratic. It will look like it's pulling a good swing and then it will slow down. Sometimes this slow point will stop the motion, other times it gets past it and kicks back into high gear until the next slow period comes.

Perhaps there's a specific interval between slow periods that will tell me something, but it seems if the speed picks back up, it means the hairspring is doing some of its job, so the issue is somewhere else. Lack of lubrication? Something bent?

Lubrication has been tough because my lube needle is extra fine and holds next to nothing (I have other sizes on the way). I'm guessing the longer it runs, the more it's moving the oil around evenly and as long as I don't apply too much, the endurance will only improve?

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2 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi JayS  Have you managed to get a little oil into the balance bearings, only wants a smidgin to much will slug the balance motion.       

I don't know for sure as the spot is tiny and I'm using my super-fine needle which I can't tell if it's picking up oil. And I'm only trying the non-screw side as I'm hesitant to pull this apart. Right now, it's been running untouched for the past 10 minutes or so, so I'll probably try getting a little oil in there once my larger oilers come. The balance wheel is making a good 180° sweep at its best (I video'd it at 120 fps to see it well).

If I flip it over and it stops, would that mean I need to find a way to oil the screw-side of the balance wheel (which is now up)?

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This is interesting– as I'm considering the possibility that this watch may end up working, I looked a little closer at the faces I have from my original and the one I bought to get it going.

The original is on the left. It has a warmer cast to it, more pronounced radial lines, more defined "bells" at 3 & 9, a hyphen in SELF-WIND, and a different font on the 12 & 6,  the "SELF-WIND" and the ID# at the bottom (which is the same for both watches).

Personally, I like the warmer hue of the original, though I may want to snag the hands off the newer one...

20200506_172706 copy.jpg

Edited by JayS
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29 minutes ago, JayS said:

If I flip it over and it stops, would that mean I need to find a way to oil the screw-side of the balance wheel (which is now up)?

That is one possibility. It could also be that the hairspring is not lying flat, or that one or other of the v-conic bearings is dirty.. or one of the other pivots is dirty. Start with oiling the second balance pivot. If you get oil on the hairspring, then you will need to remove it. A dip in lighter fluid, then allowing it to dry completely will remove oil on the hairspring (and indeed oil everywhere else, so you will need to re-oil).

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54 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

That is one possibility. It could also be that the hairspring is not lying flat, or that one or other of the v-conic bearings is dirty.. or one of the other pivots is dirty. Start with oiling the second balance pivot. If you get oil on the hairspring, then you will need to remove it. A dip in lighter fluid, then allowing it to dry completely will remove oil on the hairspring (and indeed oil everywhere else, so you will need to re-oil).

Can I oil the second balance pivot by removing the screw, oiling it and screwing it back down, so as not to need to take apart the main plates? I do notice that the balance wheel moves much more slowly when face down and can eventually stop. If so, how do you tell when you've screwed it in enough? Count the turns when you're removing it?

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Hi JayS   yes you can remove the screw and while you are at it clean the Vconic bearing and polish it with pegwood then inspect the pivot, without the bearing , put a dab of oil in the bearing  cup  .and screw back in checking the end shake as you go. It needs minimum end shake and maximum freedom in rotation

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Well, the movement is running consistently through a full wind, which seems to be a day and a half or so, after lubricating everything. My issue has moved onto amplitude. It varies over position and time, anywhere from around 260 on a full wind down to 170 the following day.

How can I tell if I have enough (or too much) end-shake? Is there some perfect point just before it starts binding ?

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Hi there is no definative method its a question of feel, achieving the minimum amount without compromising the rotation. In the factory they will have set the end shake when new, and now several years on its had some use therefore some wear so one will have compensate for that. 

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I received yet a third version of this watch, an ebay find that touted its shape and listed it as "running". Technically, it does, but upon opening it up I found its amplitude to be much less than the one I've brought back, maybe 80° or so. There's something comforting about working on 3 exact same models (albeit one incomplete without a hairspring). Let's see what I can improve on this one...

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