Balance assembly advice for a clumsy amateur watch enthusiast

[HardTop]

Good day to you all.

I'm deciding to ask for help because I really can't manage it by myself.

For the life of me I cannot understand how to set the balance assembly back into position after having replaced a broken escape wheel.

I'm working on a Lanco/Tissot 782-1 movement, I had already removed/replaced the balance before and I haven't had any issue.

Now I just can't seem to get the balance oscillation working. The wheel seems to stick or isn't turning freely. I have spare parts and checked 2 or 3 different balances, I checked the staff & its pivot which are not broken, the roller jewel isn't broken either, the balance pivot hole is not clogged nor does it seem widened, and the pallet is in working order (I checked the escapement by arming the mainspring a couple of clicks then manually oscillating the pallet with a wood pick, everything runs perfectly).

So it seems the rest of the movement is okay, the issue lies with how to place the balance back into position. I checked lots of tutorials & videos, Mark's included and I'm always quite astonished when I see how watchmakers and repairmen handle  the balance, even if the hairspring is fragile even professionals seem to handle that part somewhat roughly. I take the greatest care when manipulating that part (and others) but no matter how I set the wheel&pivot back, the movement doesn't seem to run.

Is there something I'm missing? Should the pallet be positioned specifically when replacing the balance? Should the roller jewel be placed in a specific setting versus the pallet fork as well? Everytime I tried before those things didn't seem to make a difference, so I'm really wondering what's wrong here, considering I tried several balances with different plates and different pallets, I can't understand where the issue is.

I guess my question is: as tutorials don't usually give out many details about how to lay a balance back down into the plate, what should I take into account and what are the exact right steps to perform to ensure the balance will run smoothly ?

Thanks for your help, I'm getting desperate here :-/

 

Laurent AKA HardTop

[watchweasol]

Hi  If as you say the pallet/fork  is snapping back and forth when moved the problem is indeed the balance, first locate the lower pivot and the impulse pin  into the fork Then lower the cock into place and then locate the upper pivot, give the movement a little twist to ensure rotation is ok then fit the screw loosley, now check the impulse pin is in the fork and lift the balance vertically there should be a little end shake if not recheck the pivots are located correctly once you have achieved all that twist the movement again  and check for rotation and only when the balance is running tighten the screw.   Attached are the two tech sheets for the tissot

2790_Tissot 781.1,782.1,783.1,784.1 (2).pdf 2789_Tissot 781,782,783,784 (1).pdf

[HardTop]

Hey! Thanks for the feedback.

So if I get your meaning the impulse jewel should sit perfectly between the pallet fork pins. You mentioned I should give the movement a little spin but even at this point I can't seem to get it to spin freely. I'll try again making sure the jewel is in place.

It's not that easy because if the mainspring has some power left the pallet won't sit idle in the middle position, it will jog back or forth to it's input/output position.

Something else, you mentioned I should locate the pivots (I'm guessing the balance staff pivots), what am I supposed to do with those once I located them ?

 

Thanks again so much for the feedback, this project is really important to me and I hope I can manage to complete it soon.

[JohnR725]

Always nice to have pictures? When the balance wheel removed power  applied without the pallet fork does everything spin nicely? Then with pallet fork in and power applied again gently pushing on the fork does it snap back and forth?

What the problem you're Probably experiencing is the roller jewel is on the wrong side of the fork. That means it won't go into the slot it won't run. So basically just move the fork to the other side put the balance back in exactly as you did before and now it should run.

[HardTop]

I can try to take pictures but I don't know how to make them representative enough though. And I don't have a magnifier or macro lens, but I can try to use my eye piece.

So yeah without pallet the train runs perfectly. With the pallet I can jog it with a wood pick and it also runs normally (input/output occurs as expected). I checked the jewel and it seems to be located on the right (i.e. "good") side. But I don't know if I managed to get it sitting perfectly between the fork pins. Should the jewel not sit between the fork, could that cause the issues I'm experiencing ?

[Nucejoe]

This can happen if the cock was previously shimmed, the shim falls off when you take the balance assembly out and you wouldn't notice it. If this indeed is the issue, you may have no end skake let on balance staff. With cock screw tightened, the balance should turn freely, if end stones push on staff,balance wont turn. So checking the end shake on balance staff is the first on the list. Watchweasol explained installation proceedure. Good luck

[JohnR725]

21 minutes ago, HardTop said:

But I don't know if I managed to get it sitting perfectly between the fork pins. Should the jewel not sit between the fork, could that cause the issues I'm experiencing ?

You probably should start at the beginning? Your answers are looking confusing like too many things are going on?. The only time the fork is going to between the banking pins is with power off. It's a lot easier to put the balance wheel in if there's power on the watch. This way the fork will stay on one side or the other resting against a banking pin. Then if you pay attention to where the roller jewel as when you put the balance wheel in just make sure it's on whichever side the fork is on. I usually hold the balance wheel so that the roller jewel is  pointed kind of at the center wheel and the fork is on that side. That way and the balance starts to spin it has lots a room before it engages the fork as opposed to somehow trying to get the balance wheel in the fork in the first place which is going to be totally insane if that makes any sense at all?

Then it's usually preferred to work with the parts that came with the watch versus trying to swap your way out of a problem because especially depending upon the age there may have been modifications to parts. Or in American pocket watches they have serial numbers at all the plates swapping parts would be very bad to do here. The other thing occurs with wildly swapping parts is it becomes a confusing mass.

 

 

[HardTop]

Nucejoe: Okay let me wrap my head around this. I'm not really knowledgeable (yet?) so I might take a while to grasp all relevant concepts.

What do you mean by "end shake"? I read that before but I don't know what exactly I should be looking for here.

Also, you talked about shims. I have 3 different balances for that particular movement and they all look the same when viewed from the bottom (staff, table, pivot, impulse/roller pin/jewel). Either I lost the shim for all 3 (I hope not :-/ ) or there is no shim on that particular balance. I suppose it's specific to each movement ? How can I check and make sure ?

[HardTop]

John : sorry I tend to say/write things as they come to my mind.

The situation is as follows: I assembled the keyless works, date assembly, train, mainspring and ratchet, escape wheel, and pallet. The only thing left to be installed on the movement is the balance.

I think I understand what you mean regarding the fork. I let it rest against a banking pin (ideally the one pointing "inwards") then I set the wheel with the impulse pin roughly angled towards the fork. Thing is, that's what I've been trying to do up to now and I can't get that to work :-/

When placing the wheel and cock, should the hairspring be compressed somewhat, or as much in resting position as possible?

[Nucejoe]

Let me explain anyway.End shake is the amount of staffs axial free play, ie; how much dose the staff move up and down axially. Shim a piece of for instance aluminium foil cut and placed between the cock and mainplate, it would in effect increase the distance between the upper and lower end stones, which is to leave the staff free to turn. Your point that all three balances wont turn, makes good sense, but then the lost shim could have been thick enough whose absence rendered all three balances too long. To test for end shake; just grab the balance wheel in your tweezers, move the wheel up and down, you can feel the end shake if it exist, if no free play, the staff has no end shake and balance will not run. Ideally you would observe the balance from side view to see its axial move. With end shake problem, a balance should oscillate if you loosen the cock screw a turn and lift the cock upward, thereby you increase the distance between upper and lower end stones and produce an end shake, if it then started runing, it will stop as.soon as you tighten the cock screw back. Balance turns freely but wont pick up and go, if this was a case of impulse hitting the fork outside the horn.

[JohnR725]

47 minutes ago, HardTop said:

I think I understand what you mean regarding the fork. I let it rest against a banking pin (ideally the one pointing "inwards") then I set the wheel with the impulse pin roughly angled towards the fork. Thing is, that's what I've been trying to do up to now and I can't get that to work :-/

Pallet fork placement is correct and there should be  power on the forks what stays in place otherwise this is not be an impossible task. Then when putting the balance wheel and make sure the roller jewel/impulse pin is pointed towards the center wheel not towards the pallet fork. Once it's in place it will rotate and the watch should take off running.

Then I'm not sure what you mean by they hairspring? If you're really carefully you can lift the balance bridge with the balance dangling underneath just be careful not the jerk at around hairsprings don't like that kind of motion. Then just bring it in the position roller jewel facing towards the center of the watch rotate the balance bridge until it's over word supposed to be the balance wheel will naturally oscillate all by itself and the watch should just take off. Then you can put the balance bridge screw in just make sure nothing stops.

[JohnR725]

Okay maybe a picture would help. Notice how the balance wheel is going in the bridge is coming in? This guarantees that the roller jewel is way away from the fork. Once the balance is in place rotate the bridge until it's over where it's supposed to be gently set it in place. Usually the balance wheel might just start moving all by itself otherwise you'll have to gently push the bridge in place making sure you don't bind up the balance wheel by getting its pivots where they're not supposed to be. Then the balance wheel is now free to rotate and it will engage the fork providing the fork stayed where it's supposed to be which is why it has to have power on it.

[watchweasol]

Hi  Fitting the balance requires a steady hand and observation coupled with an understanding of the anatomy of a watch and what makes it tick. The additional advice from JohnR and NuceJoe is sound and if followed will get you there. I have attached another publication which goes into some detail on watch anatomy, which should help you with the terminology.

[HardTop]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

[...], a balance should oscillate if you loosen the cock screw a turn and lift the cock upward, thereby you increase the distance between upper and lower end stones and produce an end shake, if it then started runing, it will stop as.soon as you tighten the cock screw back. Balance turns freely but wont pick up and go, if this was a case of impulse hitting the fork outside the horn.

Yes I indeed noticed that at some point, the wheel does seem to turn more easily when the screw is untightened. But I also noticed the second behavior you're describing, so it might be a bit of both.

I noticed something possibly problematic related to the first issue: the dial posts protrude a bit too much, thus effectively pushing against the back of the cock, possibly tilting the wheel forwards. I don't know why this happens, I never saw any spacer or shim on the back of the main plate where the dial posts are plugging in. Guess I'll need a bit more investigation.

[HardTop]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  Fitting the balance requires a steady hand and observation coupled with an understanding of the anatomy of a watch and what makes it tick. The additional advice from JohnR and NuceJoe is sound and if followed will get you there. I have attached another publication which goes into some detail on watch anatomy, which should help you with the terminology.

Thanks, I'm not a native English speaker (I speak french) so terminology can be confusing. Even more so when some similar terms in both languages represent different elements. I have been studying that for a couple of months now and I roughly understand how it all comes together (on simple/mainstream mechanical movements and possibly very common automatics, I'm not going into complications territory anytime soon if ever) but I clearly need more practice and experience. Which is why all your help is very much appreciated!

BTW there seems to be an attachment missing, I don't see the publication you mentioned (apart from the first two you published on your first reply)

Edited April 27, 2020 by HardTop
btw part

[HardTop]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Okay maybe a picture would help. Notice how the balance wheel is going in the bridge is coming in? This guarantees that the roller jewel is way away from the fork. Once the balance is in place rotate the bridge until it's over where it's supposed to be gently set it in place. Usually the balance wheel might just start moving all by itself otherwise you'll have to gently push the bridge in place making sure you don't bind up the balance wheel by getting its pivots where they're not supposed to be. Then the balance wheel is now free to rotate and it will engage the fork providing the fork stayed where it's supposed to be which is why it has to have power on it.

[image]

Okay I get it. That's how I pictured it as well, what I was mentioning about the hairspring was the fact that presenting the cock perpendicular to it's final position implies it will be rotated at some point and the wheel staying into place (in my case, I now understand it shouldn't!) caused the spring to compress. Where ideally it shouldn't but the wheel should start oscillating instead.

I'll give that a go tomorrow morning (it's midnight around here) and apply all the advice you all gave me here. I'll do some pictures/videos in case my two left hands did something wrong.

What remains to ascertain is the need for shims on the lower balance staff pivot. I'm think this one particular movement has none but I have to make sure.

[JohnR725]

16 minutes ago, HardTop said:

What remains to ascertain is the need for shims on the lower balance staff pivot. I'm think this one particular movement has none but I have to make sure.

Extreme caution here? Do not fix nonexistent problems as that will complicate things considerably. shims Are not something to be added after on To fix some other problem if that other problem even exists? Usually they are found in watches where manufacturing skills are lacking or machinery isn't properly set up to machine parts. So before jumping to conclusions let's do proper diagnostics and it also be nice to get some pictures of the watch with the balance wheel out and a picture of the front side of the watch.

 

[HardTop]

31 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Extreme caution here? Do not fix nonexistent problems as that will complicate things considerably. shims Are not something to be added after on To fix some other problem if that other problem even exists? Usually they are found in watches where manufacturing skills are lacking or machinery isn't properly set up to machine parts. So before jumping to conclusions let's do proper diagnostics and it also be nice to get some pictures of the watch with the balance wheel out and a picture of the front side of the watch.

 

I mentioned shims because NuceJoe said the cock might have been shimmed before. I suppose I now get that he meant someone might have used shims to repair the watch before, not that watches usually come with shimmed balance staffs from the get-go. My bad.

So here are a couple of pictures of the watch and escapement/pallets.

 

[watchweasol]

Hi   HTop    The publication was indeed missing, so I have attached it to this one for you  sorry about that.

TZIllustratedGlossary (1).pdf

[HardTop]

Here are two videos I did today. Forgive the hand shaking, I have a condition. I know I don't have many prerequisites or assets going on for me to take the plunge into amateur watchmaking, but I really like that microcosm and I'll do what I can to take part as best as I can ;-)

 

First video we can see the wheel doesn't really want to sit into place although the pivot falls into place the way it should (I think):

https://bittube.video/videos/watch/d1f38cf5-8621-437d-a10f-8124b588e676

 

Second video shows the balance staff pivot resting in its main plate pivot hole:

https://bittube.video/videos/watch/d8645ba2-5ab8-4767-a918-ffbb432bb6f4

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by HardTop

[JohnR725]

The videos start to look interesting but the player stalls and says it's doing something and just sits there? These are the times where it's nice to download and play it in a computer if were having networking issues it looks like there may be some sort of how it's encoded issues.

So this is where I fall back and go back to the very first posting because? It seems like where lost after rereading the original message I think were lost you still are having the exact same problem before and we still haven't even identified what the problem is? Even though there's been all sorts of speculation nothing has changed at all?

So before you started playing with the watch what was the condition I might've asked that before it might even be answered up there somewhere but are not go reread the entire thread. Why did you change the escape wheel and somewhere I thought it was a reference to other parts like maybe apart Swatch or something so how much parts swapping of you been doing?.

Then rather than struggling with this and breaking it take a break go play with something else sometimes the harder you look for something the harder it becomes to see it.

 

 

 

[watchweasol]

Hi   As we are at some what of an impasse as far as diagnosing this problem , I would like to take a backward step here,  Remove the balance and re check the pivots are sound. Then remove the pallet completely and if it helps strip the watch down to the main plate then re fit the balance on its own . withn everything else removed you will have a clear view of the situation. Now with just the balance in place does it swing clear and easy if not we will have to dig a bit deeper.  By fitting the balance on its own we have eliminated any other elements .

[HardTop]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The videos start to look interesting but the player stalls and says it's doing something and just sits there? These are the times where it's nice to download and play it in a computer if were having networking issues it looks like there may be some sort of how it's encoded issues.

So this is where I fall back and go back to the very first posting because? It seems like where lost after rereading the original message I think were lost you still are having the exact same problem before and we still haven't even identified what the problem is? Even though there's been all sorts of speculation nothing has changed at all?

So before you started playing with the watch what was the condition I might've asked that before it might even be answered up there somewhere but are not go reread the entire thread. Why did you change the escape wheel and somewhere I thought it was a reference to other parts like maybe apart Swatch or something so how much parts swapping of you been doing?.

Then rather than struggling with this and breaking it take a break go play with something else sometimes the harder you look for something the harder it becomes to see it.

 

 

 

I tried the videos and they seem to be working here though ? Anyways to be clear I have two movements like that one, and I use the second one to diagnose issue I get with the main one, as well as for spare parts.

The watch (main movement) was an old watch with a broken crown and other issues, I managed to fix some of the faulty parts (replaced the escape wheel and winding stem) and reassembled it, but now I'm stuck on the balance part. Thing is, I broke more than one balance recently (usually by twisting the hairspring, dang those things are fragile) so now most of the watch is assembled and in working order, I'll focus on reinstalling a new balance as soon as I can get one. Hopefully I'll be able to install this new one without breaking anything. But that's how you learn eh? 

Thanks for the advice and info though. I'll keep you posted if that's OK.

[HardTop]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi   As we are at some what of an impasse as far as diagnosing this problem , I would like to take a backward step here,  Remove the balance and re check the pivots are sound. Then remove the pallet completely and if it helps strip the watch down to the main plate then re fit the balance on its own . withn everything else removed you will have a clear view of the situation. Now with just the balance in place does it swing clear and easy if not we will have to dig a bit deeper.  By fitting the balance on its own we have eliminated any other elements .

I actually did what you suggested, unassembled the whole train assembly and back to the main plate. I then proceeded to reinstall the center wheel, intermediate wheel (third wheel?) and second wheel, as well as the escape wheel and the train bridge. Everything seemed to be running butter smooth, so I reinstalled the pallet and bridge. Now I'm waiting for a new balance as it seems that the regulator pin snapped open or broke and the hairspring was set loose. Upon inspection I think the spring also fell off the stud so it might be unrepaireable as it is. I'll check eBay or other online shops for a replacement, hoping I'll be able to replace it without breaking it. Those are so fragile for my clumsy left hands.

For reference here is my balance wheel with hairspring detached from the stud/cock
https://ibb.co/vLxMkKn

and here's the cock with the seemingly broken stud (I managed to wiggle the regulator  pin closed so it might not be broken)
https://ibb.co/Vp8JyvQ
 

So just to be sure, there's no way to reattach the hairspring to the stud right ? If any of you stuble upon a second hand balance for this movement, don't hesitate to chime in ;-)

Thanks anyway for all your help guys, it's really nice. I'll circle back when I get a spare balance in the hope I'll be able to exhibit my fully-functioning watch at last.

[watchweasol]

Hi   The regulator pin looks ok  But should it snap they are available from cousins uk .  The balance spring tooks a bit tatty and in need of some tlc. It is possible to re fit the stud , might do for practice.