UG 218.2 - Mainspring Issue

[mzinski]

Hi, 

Right now I’m working on a Universal Geneve Polerouter with a cal. 218.2 micro rotor movement in it. 
It’s been cleaned and relubricated. Micro rotor is a little loose and could really use a new axle. But I want to see if I can get it going leaving that aside for now. They’re expensive and I can be patient on the replacement. 
I changed the mainspring as well. Put in a Best Fit WA89. Seemed it fit fine. Movement regulated nicely and showed good numbers. 
upon putting it all back together and popping it in a autowinder to confirm it’s doing okay. 
After about 4 hrs the mainspring unwound suddenly. 
Okay. So I tried tweaking the connection to the arbor - broke the spring. That’s okay because I stumbled upon a UG mainspring from Ofrei. 
New spring in. Good fit, good everything. Reassembled and test dial up on my desk. Power reserve holds for 32 hrs. Time to try the autowinder. 
Same issue. After 4 hrs or so, mainspring unwinds. 
My next guess is the wobbly micro rotor is causing the issue. It’s weakly engaging the click and letting the mainspring unwind. 
I pull out the micro rotor. Try again. Same result. 
My last guess is to replace the barrel arbor. 
Any thoughts or advice on this riddle? 
TIA!! 

[clockboy]

That looks like a nice movement. I presume it has a auto mainspring and therefore breaking grease should be applied to the wall of the barrel. The arbour should be snug around the the spring so no slippage is possible.  Found this service walkthrough:

https://watchguy.co.uk/service-universal-polerouter-geneve-calibre-218-9/

[oldhippy]

I would check the winding gears and everything that has to do with the winding of the mainspring that includes the barrel. 

[Nucejoe]

As said, mainspring spindle slips on barrel wall, breaking grease helps and I roughen up the surface of barrel wall with sand paper. Intersting design, I couldn,t locate the click. Worn axle or rotor hole, lets rotor drag on the mainplate and retards winding, I don,t see how it can release the click on this, certainly wont on normal designs. Good luck

[JohnR725]

Not a lot of servicing or tech sheets out there for this watch? Found a link of something kind of similar somebody serviced. Another link on history and a tiny bit on servicing. Parts lists are interesting in that the 218 has a different mainspring then at 215? It looks like they're more or less the same except the width I don't suppose you measured that?

Okay possibly confusion on my part? So manually can wind up the watch it runs fine for 24 hours everything is wonderful. Then you put the auto winder on and it runs four hours and then slips? Then is the auto winder currently being wound or just sitting there? The other thing is if you manually wind it up as others have pointed out does the mainspring just slip because you didn't put the breaking grease on?

https://watchguy.co.uk/service-universal-polerouter-geneve-calibre-218-9/

http://www.polerouter.de/frameset-movements.htm

Universal_Universal 215, 215-07.pdf Universal_Universal 218, 218-2.pdf

[Nucejoe]

I am sure I don,t understand the story. Will you clarify "You pull out the microrotor, try again, same result". And johnR,s point, Did you get 32hrs power reserved by 4hrs on winder? Will you tell more in detail.

[mzinski]

15 hours ago, oldhippy said:

I would check the winding gears and everything that has to do with the winding of the mainspring that includes the barrel. 

That's a great idea to investigate - the double-decker ratchet wheel. It has a slipping mechanism internal to it that allows the hand-winding to work independent of the autowind. I did not pull it apart to inspect the inner workings. I wonder if it is slipping and releasing the mainspring!

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I am sure I don,t understand the story. Will you clarify "You pull out the microrotor, try again, same result". And johnR,s point, Did you get 32hrs power reserved by 4hrs on winder? Will you tell more in detail.

Sorry about my original description, I was trying to describe my process of elimination. 

I started with a full movement reassembly and testing. Upon giving it a full, hand-wind (50 turns) I placed it in an autowinder to see if it would continue to go perpetually powered by the autowind mechanism. In this case, the mainspring unwound after approximately 4 hours. 

Because the oscillating weight had a bit of wobble (due to a worn axle I suspect) I thought perhaps this was causing a problem. I removed the oscillating weight, gave it a full, hand-wind (50 turns) and placed in autowinder. Same mainspring release after 4 hours. 

Replaced mainspring - same results. 

I'm trying to determine what would cause a mainspring to release after approximately 4 hours of working fine. For what it's worth I audibly hear the main spring release when it happens. 

I have had one instance of reassembling completely after installing the new mainspring that I fully wound it and left it sitting dial up. That was the one and only time it was held it's power reserve for 32 hrs. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, mzinski said:

the double-decker ratchet wheel. It has a slipping mechanism internal to it that allows the hand-winding to work independent of the autowind. I did not pull it apart to inspect the inner workings.

According to the parts list it looks like the double wheel mechanism is one component?

[mzinski]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

According to the parts list it looks like the double wheel mechanism is one component?

That’s correct, it is. 

[JohnR725]

The double ratchet mechanism is also there to allow the automatic weight to rotate back words and slip as opposed to attempting the wind the watch backwards. Automatic watches have a lot of clever things to get the automatic weight to wind the watch only in one direction. Then wheels like this need special possible lubrication? If the little clicks get sticky because of the wrong lubrication they could stay out and that would cause slippage. It's all a watch companies tend a little different now that of how there supposed to be lubricated or not.

Okay I have questions? So if I'm interpreting correctly you wind the watch up 50 times and with the automatic weight on or off for hours later it stops? Or four hours later you hear the mainspring release?

9 hours ago, mzinski said:

I'm trying to determine what would cause a mainspring to release after approximately 4 hours of working fine. For what it's worth I audibly hear the main spring release when it happens. 

Normally on automatic watch ignoring your description above if you manually or wind it with the automatic at some point in time the mainspring is fully wound and it's supposed to slip. You're supposed to have a special grease that allows it to release and it still has to function as a grease. Otherwise your barrel wall will disintegrate and it be a real big massive brass filings in your barrel which is not good. If you use the wrong grease on the wall or no grease when the spring slips you might lose all of your power or a lot of it. The breaking greases supposed to break free let the mainspring slip a little bit and then gripped it again.

But if I read correctly approximately 4 hours after you wind it up it makes a strange sound and comes to a stop?

 

 

[mzinski]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The double ratchet mechanism is also there to allow the automatic weight to rotate back words and slip as opposed to attempting the wind the watch backwards. Automatic watches have a lot of clever things to get the automatic weight to wind the watch only in one direction. Then wheels like this need special possible lubrication? If the little clicks get sticky because of the wrong lubrication they could stay out and that would cause slippage. It's all a watch companies tend a little different now that of how there supposed to be lubricated or not.

Okay I have questions? So if I'm interpreting correctly you wind the watch up 50 times and with the automatic weight on or off for hours later it stops? Or four hours later you hear the mainspring release?

Normally on automatic watch ignoring your description above if you manually or wind it with the automatic at some point in time the mainspring is fully wound and it's supposed to slip. You're supposed to have a special grease that allows it to release and it still has to function as a grease. Otherwise your barrel wall will disintegrate and it be a real big massive brass filings in your barrel which is not good. If you use the wrong grease on the wall or no grease when the spring slips you might lose all of your power or a lot of it. The breaking greases supposed to break free let the mainspring slip a little bit and then gripped it again.

But if I read correctly approximately 4 hours after you wind it up it makes a strange sound and comes to a stop?

 

 

The issue is no the bridle slipping inside the main barrel. The issue is the mainspring unwinds after 4 hours(ish) - like what would happen if you release a click without holding on to the winding stem - ziiiiip! 

Now I have not observed if the winding stem spins or not. Because it happens at approximately 4 hours +/- 30 min I haven't set myself up to observe the watch for an hour, four hours after winding. Obviously this would indicate if the click is releasing. 

I did not have a chance to get into it last night but I will look into the double ratchet wheel - perhaps try cleaning it again and relubricating. I treated it similarly to a reversing wheel with a small amount of 9010. Perhaps I should compare it closer to a Rolex reversing wheel and lubricate like that? 

[mzinski]

44 minutes ago, mzinski said:

The issue is no the bridle slipping inside the main barrel. The issue is the mainspring unwinds after 4 hours(ish) - like what would happen if you release a click without holding on to the winding stem - ziiiiip! 

Now I have not observed if the winding stem spins or not. Because it happens at approximately 4 hours +/- 30 min I haven't set myself up to observe the watch for an hour, four hours after winding. Obviously this would indicate if the click is releasing. 

I did not have a chance to get into it last night but I will look into the double ratchet wheel - perhaps try cleaning it again and relubricating. I treated it similarly to a reversing wheel with a small amount of 9010. Perhaps I should compare it closer to a Rolex reversing wheel and lubricate like that? 

Update: I went to wind the watch this morning - the mainspring unwound after 18 turns of the crown. When it unwound, it zipped free without effecting the crown. This leads me to think either the double ratchet is not catching properly or the arbor is slipping. 

[Nucejoe]

I attack the "SURFACE" of inside wall of the barrel with sandpaper. Sounds like breaking grease is not effective enough in this case.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Nucejoe
Internal surface

[mzinski]

6 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I attack the "SURFACE" of inside wall of the barrel with sandpaper. Sounds like breaking grease is not effective enough in this case.

I'll try it. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, mzinski said:

I'll try it. 

You should not have to sand paper the inside of the barrel wall the breaking grease will work fine. Why don't you try some KLUBER P125. Normally small quantities are applied around the outside barrel wall but if you really wanted to hold use a lot more. If you get carried away with this like for instance spread across the entire Surface of the barrel Wall it's going to have actually too much holding but if you're really worried about holding that's what you want to do..

 

 

 

[mzinski]

2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

You should not have to sand paper the inside of the barrel wall the breaking grease will work fine. Why don't you try some KLUBER P125. Normally small quantities are applied around the outside barrel wall but if you really wanted to hold use a lot more. If you get carried away with this like for instance spread across the entire Surface of the barrel Wall it's going to have actually too much holding but if you're really worried about holding that's what you want to do..

 

 

 

I have Moebius 8200 on hand. That's what I have been using on barrel walls to date. So far no issues. But that isn't to say I'm using the wrong stuff. I'll order some Kluber P125 if you think that's a better one to use. 

[JohnR725]

1 minute ago, mzinski said:

I have Moebius 8200

Okay now we have a problem because if you got your number right that is definitely the wrong lubrication sort of. 8200 is used to lubricate mainsprings it is most definitely not to be used as the breaking grease because it is just a grease.

I have a first link below if you are interested in properties of lubrication's. If you scroll down the the page you'll get to 8212 ,8213 & 8217. This is that they're breaking greases and notice it's a little bit cryptic but they do use the word breaking and the walls style or type is  different.

Then second link we've had this discussion before sort of. Scroll down you'll see some pictures give you a clue of how you're supposed to use the grease. You'll notice they use it sparingly at least the p125 because of you use too much you can really feel when you reach the end the breaking is way too much and it will lead to timing issues. With the minor possibility of breaking some automatics if it doesn't slip.

 

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/greases

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/9953-kluber-p-125-vs-homemade/

[mzinski]

48 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Okay now we have a problem because if you got your number right that is definitely the wrong lubrication sort of. 8200 is used to lubricate mainsprings it is most definitely not to be used as the breaking grease because it is just a grease.

I have a first link below if you are interested in properties of lubrication's. If you scroll down the the page you'll get to 8212 ,8213 & 8217. This is that they're breaking greases and notice it's a little bit cryptic but they do use the word breaking and the walls style or type is  different.

Then second link we've had this discussion before sort of. Scroll down you'll see some pictures give you a clue of how you're supposed to use the grease. You'll notice they use it sparingly at least the p125 because of you use too much you can really feel when you reach the end the breaking is way too much and it will lead to timing issues. With the minor possibility of breaking some automatics if it doesn't slip.

 

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/greases

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/9953-kluber-p-125-vs-homemade/

Aha! Thank you! 8217 en route to me. 

That's what I get for listening to advice on an online forum without confirming if the person providing the advice is legit...

 

[StuartBaker104]

Mostly the 218 and 215 are very similar. There is an oiling chart for the automatic mechanism for the 215 at the bottom of this page...

http://polerouter.de/frameset-movements.htm

[Nucejoe]

As little power as this reserves, it be interesting if breaking grease can stops the slipage.Hopefully it will.

[mzinski]

So I cleaned and re-oiled the mainspring and barrel. This time using 8217 braking grease on the walls and 8141 on the spring itself. I then worked the spring to latch securely onto the arbor - just in case something was slipping there. 
And it happened again! 
But I got to observing things as I wound I witnessed the slip. The whole barrel whizzed around without effecting the ratchet wheel or stem. 
What I’ve discovered is the barrel has quite a bit of wobble when installed. So much that it can wobbles off the teeth of the drive train. Which explains why it releases on an autowinder but was not releasing when wound and set perfectly still. 
So now I’m on to suspecting either the arbor is worn or the brass jewel is worn (or both). 
I can readily order a new arbor from Ofrei so I’ll start there. 

[JohnR725]

So a good and bad news story? You figured out where the problem was learned how to properly lubricate your barrel you made progress.

I've seen examples of where people of made bushings for the barrels themselves. Then googling to see if I can find any reference to that instead I found another barrel problem not sure its same one you have. Then not all watches have bushings that you could push out either.

 

https://www.thewatchsite.com/threads/a-6139-with-2-extra-jewels.174273/

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/6714-bushings-for-mainplate-material/

[StuartBaker104]

1 hour ago, mzinski said:

So I cleaned and re-oiled the mainspring and barrel. This time using 8217 braking grease on the walls and 8141 on the spring itself. I then worked the spring to latch securely onto the arbor - just in case something was slipping there. 
And it happened again! 
But I got to observing things as I wound I witnessed the slip. The whole barrel whizzed around without effecting the ratchet wheel or stem. 
What I’ve discovered is the barrel has quite a bit of wobble when installed. So much that it can wobbles off the teeth of the drive train. Which explains why it releases on an autowinder but was not releasing when wound and set perfectly still. 
So now I’m on to suspecting either the arbor is worn or the brass jewel is worn (or both). 
I can readily order a new arbor from Ofrei so I’ll start there. 

Take a good look at the barrel bridge, this is made of brass and much more likely to wear than the arbour.

I have a 215 which had very heavy wear there. It was hard to see at first because the arbour doesn’t protrude all the way through the depth of the plate, so the hole looked perfect from the oil sink side.

[mzinski]

7 hours ago, StuartBaker104 said:

Take a good look at the barrel bridge, this is made of brass and much more likely to wear than the arbour.

I have a 215 which had very heavy wear there. It was hard to see at first because the arbour doesn’t protrude all the way through the depth of the plate, so the hole looked perfect from the oil sink side.

What did you do to resolve it? We’re you able to remove the bushing and replace? If so, did you use a jewel, brass, or bronze? 

[StuartBaker104]

Tried to bush it, but didn’t have a lathe back then to turn the step on the back of the plate. Ended up buying a replacement bridge from a breaker on eBay. They don’t come up very often though.