Diagnosing a winding issue with an ETA 2834-2

[sconniebt]

Hello Everybody!

I have been dealing with an issue with a Tudor watch for months now.  I will preface this conversation by saying I am not a watchmaker.  Just an enthusiast that is interested and intrigued by the mechanical side, and has a tendency to tinker. 

The issue I'm having relates to the winding of the watch.  It is a screw down crown, but when mechanically winding the watch, the winding will skip occasionally. I brought this to a local watchmaker and he suspected the crown initially.  The crown was replaced, watch sent back to me, and yet the slipping was still there. 

The slipping doesn't happen every time you wind the watch, only occasionally.  And it seems to do better if you wind the crown in a back and forth method, than it does it you wind it forward, lift your fingers, and wind it forward again.  My belief is that it could have been the teeth connecting the winding and sliding pinion, because when you do the back and forth winding method, you are essentially reengaging the teeth each time before you wind.  

In another forum, someone suggested that it could be a bent yolk, however I don't think that would be it, since all other keyless functions work flawlessly.  The last thing that someone mentioned is that there is a lack of spring pressure on the setting lever spring, and thus there is not enough force to keep the sliding pinion and winding pinion engaged. 

What does everyone else think could be the problem?   Does it make more sense that the sliding/winding pinions need to be replaced, or that the yolk is bent, or that he setting lever spring has lost it's power?   Or from reading this, is there something else I should be considering?  

Thanks in advance! 

[DavidMasters]

The winding pinion is losing grip or backing off. The keyless works needs to be examined for the issue. Could be that a bit of oil in the oil points may resolve the issue, but a close look at the gear teeth is needed. Post a few pictures of the area if you have it apart.

Good luck.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by DavidMasters

[HSL]

The ETA 2834-2 is a quite straight forward robust based on the 2824-2 movement.
To pinpoint the issue you first got have to have a little understanding of the basics of the keyless work.
I got the movement ready so lets go..

First, the crown wheel. It's not too hard to see if the crown wheel is worn down it is quite exposed.
The crown wheel is driven by the winding pinion, you can see the gears interact here.

Since I don't want to stripp this movement down, I have prepared with an appropiate victim, just like the TV chefs.

Here you see the parts involved with the winding of the watch and setting of day and date,
We got the sliding pinion, this is what is pushed forward to set the day and date, when pushed forward the winding pinion get released.
The yoke is pushing the sliding pinion forward when it is affected by the setting lever.
As you said the date and day is ok so the yoke must be in place.

To wind the watch the setting lever must push against the winding pinion. Both these have angled gears where they interact which makes the winding possible when turning one way but makes the gears not grip when turned in the other.
So one of the culprits here could be worn gears on the sliding and winding pinion,

On a "normal" older movement you would have a yoke spring but on these movements that is integrated on the setting lever jumper.
Sometimes the spring gets dissengaged from the yoke at the point the arrow is which makes the winding waked.
If everything is okay that spring is what pushes the sliding pinion against the winding pinion. 
So the second fault could be here.

The third and last fault could be lack of lubricant, dirt on the winding stem or it is damaged.

But I think a watchrepairer checking these simple things would make a wonder on your watch. 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by HSL

[Marc]

Just a thought but it may be worth checking that it has the correct stem fitted.

I believe that many of the 28xx family movements have a helical form to the square section of the stem the purpose of which is to increase the interface pressure between the sliding pinion and the winding pinion during winding.

Is it possible that at some point a helical form stem has been replaced with a straight stem?

[HSL]

Just a little passus, the most of the newer 28XX has straight stems, some of the older have the helical so just because you pop out a straiht stem from a 28XX one can´t  assume it's the wrong one. But if one knows it been changed then it can happen.

On the helical package 2834 seems to be missing.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by HSL

[Nucejoe]

"Skips occasionally". Dose that seem to depend on barrel power? Since barrel puts up less resistance to winding at low wind. If we are to blame the spring pressure of the return bar, then howcome, it dose better as you do wind/unwind with the crown? When it dose skip, I do a push in and pull out with the stem, if that made a difference, it would point out to the stem to blame, worn, too short!!. That it seems to do better as you go wind and unwind, Pinion teeth can be blamed. Then barrel and self winda device putting up excess resistance can exassrobate or cause the problem, so I eliminate the auto device and see if still skips with manual wind, I also try winding through the ratchet wheel, use a screwdriver to turn the ratchet wheel through its screw. You may find the issue disappear with the movement out of the case, that tell us the stem isn,t going in far enough to properly set in exact position set spring dicatates.

[sconniebt]

Thank you all for your great insight.  I decided to take some pictures of some of the components last night so you can help me decipher if it is a wear issue.  Lucky for me, I have another watch that has the exact same 2834-2 inside.  So i decided to disassemble both and compare the components for wear.  One movement is more decorated and belongs to the Tudor watch with the problem, the other is a Hamilton that I have had since new.  Both watches are from around 2014, so similar wear could be expected. 

 My limitations in disassembly is that I do not have a controlled work environment, so there may be dust or particles that you see, also i do not have any capability to clean or lubricate these parts before reassembling things.  I plan to have a watch maker reassemble the Tudor once i diagnose the issue, and properly lubricate them. But let me know what you think on the overall condition of the movement in relation to how dirty/clean it is, and if it obviously looks like it needs a fresh oil/lube.  I would really appreciate everyone's feed back. 

Here are some photos of the keyless works area from the caseback side of the movement.  I am unable to remove the dial with the tools i have available to me, so i apologize for not being able to show the set lever spring, yolk, etc. 

The next photos show the Winding pinion and the Sliding Pinion of the Tudor.  I believe I see clear wear on these pieces, but I will wait to hear what you all think. 

 

The next photos are the same winding pinion and sliding pinion from the Hamilton movement, which does not have a screw down crown, and have been performing flawlessly over the last 6 years. (thankfully it's still performing well after I put this one back together, haha) 

The Teeth on the components from the Hamilton seem much crisper to my eye. 

I would love to hear everyone's thoughts.   I'm wondering if replacing the winding and sliding pinions would be a good first step to see if it cuts down on the slipping of the crown. 

Thanks everyone!  Really appreciate the insight!  

[HSL]

As we say in Sweden... Ujujujuj.
I would say those worn teeth is just a symptom of something else is going on. Just switching a part or two will probably just dampen the sympoms for a while.
I would recommend a complete overhaul / service in this case and, in that process change the winding pinion and sliding pinion since some gears clearly are bad.

Edited April 18, 2020 by HSL

[StuartBaker104]

What HSL said. 6 years old is time for a service. Best to do it now before something else wears out too.

I believe a Tudor service centre will do this for a fixed price including any necessary movement parts, whereas an independent may charge for each extra part on top of a basic cost. You pays your money and takes your choice.

[Watchtime]

agree with HSL and Stuart on this......or as you are already in disassembling, take Mark's video as a guide, buy a used good working 2834 or 2824 on the bay, they are there from $130 and exchange the parts needed.

The 2834 is basically a 2824 with the day at 12, the 2836 has the day at 3. Most parts are interchangeable

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-ETA-2824-2-Watch-Movement-Swiss-Made-25-Jewels-ETA-2824/274271127470?hash=item3fdbd547ae:g:fSMAAOSwbtVZQHD7

[sconniebt]

10 hours ago, StuartBaker104 said:

What HSL said. 6 years old is time for a service. Best to do it now before something else wears out too.

I believe a Tudor service centre will do this for a fixed price including any necessary movement parts, whereas an independent may charge for each extra part on top of a basic cost. You pays your money and takes your choice.

Thank you all for the replies.  Any idea what an overhaul would cost from the Tudor service center?  I'd guess $350-400 USD? 

My dilemma with this watch is that I do not plan to keep it.  I'm trying to sell it, and therefore want to stop sticking money into it if possible.  I actually had the watch sold, and honest to God it never had the slipping issue when prior to me shipping it, and the buyer said it was slipping it when he got it.  So he sent it back and I've had this dilemma ever since.  I'm ready to get rid of the stupid thing, honestly.  

My thinking is i have a couple options.

1) sell it as is, full disclosure for discount

2) have it overhauled, hoping it fixes the issues with it and then trying to sell it for full market price.

 

 

[jdm]

On 4/16/2020 at 7:26 PM, Marc said:

Is it possible that at some point a helical form stem has been replaced with a straight stem?

It is not, because the two types are not interchangeable.

On 4/16/2020 at 7:49 PM, HSL said:

Just a little passus, the most of the newer 28XX has straight stems, some of the older have the helical so just because you pop out a straiht stem from a 28XX one can´t  assume it's the wrong one.

Older: 2824. Newer: 2824-2. For the stem and possibly other part you need to refer to the relevant parts list.