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Rotary Flyer 21 jewel 1960's writswatch


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Hi again guys

Another one of the watches I have  is a 1960's 21 jewel Rotary Flyer manual wind. The watch wouldn't run but  I have managed to clean the jewel bearings and reset the balance and the watch now seems to run. My first success!

However, having had to remove the stem to clean up the dial and inside of the crystal ( dust) I  am struggling to get the stem back in and secure it to get it operational again. I have a small plate with a fixing hole that probably operates on one of the springs, but for the life of me I can't see where it should sit.

Before you all shout "take a photograph next time" does anyone know where I could obtain an exploded view of how things should sit please?

Thanks

Steve

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13 hours ago, ArvorSteve said:

I have managed to clean the jewel bearings and reset the balance and the watch now seems to run.

Only, without using a timegrapher or equivalent application, you don't know "how" it runs.

13 hours ago, ArvorSteve said:

Before you all shout "take a photograph next time" does anyone know where I could obtain an exploded view of how things should sit please?

It would be too late now but you're still in time to take a current picture as asked above.

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15 hours ago, Marc said:

If you post a picture of the movement and the problem part(s) we may be able to talk you through where everything goes.

Hi Marc

Thanks for your offer. After looking at it again I  suddenly realised I was trying to put the plate in upside down!

I had undone the stem release screw too far and the plate had come right off. I could see this dimple in the case that looked like I should be trying to put the pin on the plate in it. On turning the plate the other way around I could see that the pin on the plate engaged with a spring. The stem now works fine.

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3 hours ago, jdm said:

Only, without using a timegrapher or equivalent application, you don't know "how" it runs.

It would be too late now but you're still in time to take a current picture as asked above.

Hi JDM

Yes you are right. The watch runs but the amplitude and time keeping is very poor. I dont think the balance is in beat.

One problem solved and another one I wasn't aware of becomes apparent.  I guess that must sound familiar at least to some of you!

Thanks

 

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13 minutes ago, ArvorSteve said:

The watch runs but the amplitude and time keeping is very poor. I dont think the balance is in beat.

Beat error does not affects amplitude much, so likely there is more to that.

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17 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Is it possible you could post the make and calibre of the movement maybe then I can find the tech sheet for you   Look under or near the balance for a logo and number.

Hi

It's a Rotary Flyer. Not sure if it's the original movement but1704/05 is stamped below the balance cock. If you have a tech sheet that would be useful and give me more confidence in tackling a full service. 

Thanks for your help.

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Hi   Thank you for the caliber Number , This number could relate to many movements as Rotary used many eubauches movements and latterly some chinese sketeton movements Usually seagul.  Without the makers mark It is almost impossible to find a sheet. If you could post a picture (close up) of the number and the makers mark which should be close to the number we are shooting in the dark.       cheers

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I'll put money on it being an AS movement.

Although Rotary patronised a number of different makers, AS was one that they use a lot. Further more, AS main plates that were common to two different calibers (i.e. calendar and non-calendar variants of basically the same base movement) often had both relevant calibers stamped on them. Thus AS 1704/05 would be a main plate that was used for the 1704 (no date) and the 1705 (with date).

2476_AS 1704.pdf

2477_AS 1705.pdf

Parts sheets attached.

Unfortunately these are little more than parts lists and are unlikely to help too much with regards to diagnosing poor performance. However, there is nothing out of the ordinary about these movements so the generic approach to trouble shooting should be all that is needed to sort things out.

On 3/10/2020 at 8:49 PM, ArvorSteve said:

I have managed to clean the jewel bearings and reset the balance and the watch now seems to run.

When you did this did you do any other servicing?

From the way you describe your progress I'm guessing that you probably haven't stripped the movement, cleaned and re-lubed throughout i.e. fully serviced it (no offence meant).

Unfortunately it is extremely difficult to diagnose the cause of poor amplitude without going through the entire train from main spring (is it clean, is it worn out, is it binding in the barrel, is the barrel free on the arbor, is the arbor free in it's pivots on the main plate and bridge, is the pivot hole in either the bridge or the main plate badly worn causing the barrel to tilt and rub either the bridge or the main plate), and that's just the main spring. The same parameters need to be checked for each wheel in turn before you get to the escapement. Are all of the pivots clean and straight, are any of them badly worn. Are the pivot holes clean and undamaged. All of these thing can sap power from the train before it can get to the escapement resulting in low amplitude, to say nothing of the potential escapement issues that can also have the same effect.

As a starting point I would remove the balance and the pallet fork (let down the M/S first) and with just a couple of clicks of power wound into the spring observe how the escape wheel behaves. It should start to spin with just the smallest amount of power on the main spring. It should gradually spin down to a halt, not stop abruptly, and with any luck it may even start to turn back the other way before it stops. If you puff air from a blower builb onto the escape wheel can you see the train turn all the way back to the M/S barrel? If it takes more than a couple of clicks to start spinning, or if it stops abruptly, then that suggests that there is an excessive loss of power through the train, and that would be the first thing to sort out before trying to make any adjustments to the escapement.

Have fun :-)

 

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On 3/10/2020 at 8:49 PM, ArvorSteve said:

Hi again guys

Another one of the watches I have  is a 1960's 21 jewel Rotary Flyer manual wind. The watch wouldn't run but  I have managed to clean the jewel bearings and reset the balance and the watch now seems to run. My first success!

However, having had to remove the stem to clean up the dial and inside of the crystal ( dust) I  am struggling to get the stem back in and secure it to get it operational again. I have a small plate with a fixing hole that probably operates on one of the springs, but for the life of me I can't see where it should sit.

Before you all shout "take a photograph next time" does anyone know where I could obtain an exploded view of how things should sit please?

Thanks

Steve

High again guys and thanks for all your help.I am struggling a bit with this forum and knowing where best to put answers, so apologies if I haven't answered you each direct.

I guess it's probably best if I tell you what I managed to do so far and what I have discovered and then you can all pile in!

So I bought this Rotary Flyer that didn't work at an auction and started playing around with it. I can't call it anything more as I am a complete learner. It had a fully wound spring and I learned how to release the spring in a controlled way first.

I was celebrating my first success at having actually removed the balance wheel without damaging it, resetting it and  getting the watch to tick. That's a first success I am chalking up. Then I had that issue with the plate that comes off when you undo the stem screw too much but that got sorted as well, so second success chalk up!

The watch stopped after a few hours and the time keeping was poor, even over a short period. At this stage I was getting what I thought you call "poor amplitude" not much of a swing of the balance wheel? Maybe I got that wrong.

As JDM was quick to point out, doing what I did was probably not a proper fix, but I am taking things one step at a time, so what I did next was take the balance out again and also remove the pallet fork. I could see that the gear train was not running as smooth as I think it should, although it did start after a couple of winds of the stem, so I put some watch oil on the moving parts, not too much I think and hey presto the movement started to fly like anything, with even the slightest power. After a few rewinds I got the movement running down to a stop, but I did not take the movement apart . I would do that and attempt a full service if I had an exploded view or I might do it anyway now I have bought myself a microscope, taking photographs as I go. The scope has improved my view of things no end on the 10X magnification.

I haven't figured out yet how to repair the balance springs and you guessed it, I managed to damage the balance spring slightly trying to align it with the pallet fork when I  replaced it for the second time, so out it came again. I then saw a couple of Rotary watch movements on Ebay that looked to have identical layouts, although I am now starting to appreciate the subtleties of the variations in what appears to be the same movement and isn't!

What I bought was a 21 jewel movement with the number 1702/03 ( remember the Flyer is marked up ( 1704/05)

I thought I would take the balance out of the 1702/03 and try it in the 1704/05 . It popped in fine and did not bind, but the watch would not run. I thought I was having trouble with impulse jewel alignment in the pallet fork and started swearing to myself, quietly of course :)

This is about the time my microscope arrived and then I could see what was happening. The impulse jewel on the replacement balance was not engaging with the pallet fork. Not because I wasn't aligning it properly but because It was too high. On closer inspection under the microscope I could see that the two balances were subtly different, although the pallet forks are identical from what I can make out. I then thought I would take the balance spring off of the 1702/03 balance wheel and put it on the 1704/05 one. I then got into some more problems with the spring , so that's where I am at the moment, but I am confident that once I get a good spring onto the original balance wheel the watch will run again.

I have never taken a watch apart until a couple of weeks ago and learnt a lot in a short space of time and I think with the new microscope I will attempt a proper service on this watch. First I want to be confident with the balance assembly as that at the moment seems to be my nemesis!

One last thing I will mention is that when you look up the CAL 1704/05 number it suggests this is the number of a 17 jeweled movement, so was it/is it, common practice for watches to have the same CAL number, but have subtle differences, like the number of jewels fitted? My Flyer is a 21 jeweled 1704/05 movement made by AS as well.

In closing I am finding this new interest fascinating, although my back has been suffering a bit. Hopefully the microscope will help with that as I can sit more upright.

Thanks again for all your help guys

 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi   Thank you for the caliber Number , This number could relate to many movements as Rotary used many eubauches movements and latterly some chinese sketeton movements Usually seagul.  Without the makers mark It is almost impossible to find a sheet. If you could post a picture (close up) of the number and the makers mark which should be close to the number we are shooting in the dark.       cheers

 

3 hours ago, Marc said:

I'll put money on it being an AS movement.

Although Rotary patronised a number of different makers, AS was one that they use a lot. Further more, AS main plates that were common to two different calibers (i.e. calendar and non-calendar variants of basically the same base movement) often had both relevant calibers stamped on them. Thus AS 1704/05 would be a main plate that was used for the 1704 (no date) and the 1705 (with date).

2476_AS 1704.pdf 1.35 MB · 0 downloads

2477_AS 1705.pdf 1.69 MB · 0 downloads

Parts sheets attached.

Unfortunately these are little more than parts lists and are unlikely to help too much with regards to diagnosing poor performance. However, there is nothing out of the ordinary about these movements so the generic approach to trouble shooting should be all that is needed to sort things out.

When you did this did you do any other servicing?

From the way you describe your progress I'm guessing that you probably haven't stripped the movement, cleaned and re-lubed throughout i.e. fully serviced it (no offence meant).

Unfortunately it is extremely difficult to diagnose the cause of poor amplitude without going through the entire train from main spring (is it clean, is it worn out, is it binding in the barrel, is the barrel free on the arbor, is the arbor free in it's pivots on the main plate and bridge, is the pivot hole in either the bridge or the main plate badly worn causing the barrel to tilt and rub either the bridge or the main plate), and that's just the main spring. The same parameters need to be checked for each wheel in turn before you get to the escapement. Are all of the pivots clean and straight, are any of them badly worn. Are the pivot holes clean and undamaged. All of these thing can sap power from the train before it can get to the escapement resulting in low amplitude, to say nothing of the potential escapement issues that can also have the same effect.

As a starting point I would remove the balance and the pallet fork (let down the M/S first) and with just a couple of clicks of power wound into the spring observe how the escape wheel behaves. It should start to spin with just the smallest amount of power on the main spring. It should gradually spin down to a halt, not stop abruptly, and with any luck it may even start to turn back the other way before it stops. If you puff air from a blower builb onto the escape wheel can you see the train turn all the way back to the M/S barrel? If it takes more than a couple of clicks to start spinning, or if it stops abruptly, then that suggests that there is an excessive loss of power through the train, and that would be the first thing to sort out before trying to make any adjustments to the escapement.

Have fun :-)

 

 

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16 hours ago, ArvorSteve said:

In closing I am finding this new interest fascinating, although my back has been suffering a bit. Hopefully the microscope will help with that as I can sit more upright.

I think you're getting watches that are too much in poor conditions or particular to be repaired at your level. You need something that is robust, runs acceptably well,  has part sor donor identical mov't easily available, and of course is cheap so not to cause a loss if something goes very wrong. In that category there is perhaps the 17 jewels HMT (Citizen) from India, some Russians, some Seiko.

I recommend to not get ahead of oneself because learning requires time and patience, set reasonable goals to achieve the first successes and maintain motivation.

We had literally tens and tens of guys show up here boldly stating they would do good because they are specialized mechanics, used to repair any kind of thing, etc. And where are they now? If not the cost or time required for this hobby then there must be something else that made them give up.

An excellent way to get sure results is to enroll into our Host Mark Lovick HD Watch Repair Course - it's under resources on the top menu of this page. You will find that is challenging to just pass the score test, and of course, practice until you're 99% confident the practical steps taught.

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5 hours ago, jdm said:

I think you're getting watches that are too much in poor conditions or particular to be repaired at your level. You need something that is robust, runs acceptably well,  has part sor donor identical mov't easily available, and of course is cheap so not to cause a loss if something goes very wrong. In that category there is perhaps the 17 jewels HMT (Citizen) from India, some Russians, some Seiko.

I recommend to not get ahead of oneself because learning requires time and patience, set reasonable goals to achieve the first successes and maintain motivation.

We had literally tens and tens of guys show up here boldly stating they would do good because they are specialized mechanics, used to repair any kind of thing, etc. And where are they now? If not the cost or time required for this hobby then there must be something else that made them give up.

An excellent way to get sure results is to enroll into our Host Mark Lovick HD Watch Repair Course - it's under resources on the top menu of this page. You will find that is challenging to just pass the score test, and of course, practice until you're 99% confident the practical steps taught.

Thanks JDM. I have enough watches fo be going on with, but I take your point about practising on watches that don't cost a lot. That's why I purchased 15 for £35 at an auction. The seiko  5 alone I got working has settled that bill so I am not exactly spending a lot or risking a lot. If I can get the Rotary Flyer working then  that's a bonus and there was also three pin pallet watches and a couple of Russian ones to explore in the lot I won. 

I don't think I am getting ahead of myself either and I am happy with my success so far even if you think I  sound like I am struggling. I am having fun and that's all that matters. I am not interested in making a living or competing with anyone or trying to pass score tests.

Sorry as well if you got the impression  I was on here boasting that I would do good,. Just trying to share with you all what I have been doing.

I haven't  seen such boasting and can't advise you on why those that did boast gave up other than they probably lost motivation as you say or just found something else that they found more interesting to  them. That's why it's nice to receive some motivation on chat forums unless the intent is to discourage people.

 

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4 minutes ago, ArvorSteve said:

Sorry as well if you got the impression  I was on here boasting that I would do good,. Just trying to share with you all what I have been doing.

No you weren't boasting at all and I believe you are doing all right. Mine was a comment "en passant", apologies if it sounded criticizing, that was not my intent.

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Hi  Steve You are doing ok Jdm is just as keen as all of us to see you  do good like all of us on here. That's why we are here.  You did ok getting a batch of watches for £35 and getting the seiko going was a grand job. You got into this hobby to learn and enjoy and that is a good motivation and as long as you are doing that, brilliant.  Some jobs go like clock work others are stickers, I know I have had plenty. If it gets frustrating, put it down an leave it for a while. we have all been there and have got the T shirt,     at times I had a drawer full.   If you get stuck just ask the question and we will always do or best to help.  If the backs hurting raise the work bench to chin level so as to keep the back straight and the pain down.

Remember everyone who contributes on here has destroyed a few watches. so onwards and up wards.         cheers 

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2 hours ago, jdm said:

No you weren't boasting at all and I believe you are doing all right. Mine was a comment "en passant", apologies if it sounded criticizing, that was not my intent.

Apology accepted JDM. I used to employ 45 people before I retired and was always being pulled up about how I should be motivating people more. Glad to see I was not the only one that found it hard sometimes :)

 

18 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  Steve You are doing ok Jdm is just as keen as all of us to see you  do good like all of us on here. That's why we are here.  You did ok getting a batch of watches for £35 and getting the seiko going was a grand job. You got into this hobby to learn and enjoy and that is a good motivation and as long as you are doing that, brilliant.  Some jobs go like clock work others are stickers, I know I have had plenty. If it gets frustrating, put it down an leave it for a while. we have all been there and have got the T shirt,     at times I had a drawer full.   If you get stuck just ask the question and we will always do or best to help.  If the backs hurting raise the work bench to chin level so as to keep the back straight and the pain down.

Remember everyone who contributes on here has destroyed a few watches. so onwards and up wards.         cheers 

Now that's motivation JDM. Read and learn :)

 

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